Militia 101 — Nikiski militia leaders address KPC class about religion, society

By Jenny Neyman

Photos by Jenny Neyman, Redoubt Reporter. Norm Olson, pastor and commander of the Alaska Citizens Militia, based in Nikiski, speaks to an anthropology of religion class at Kenai Peninsula College’s Kenai River Campus on Thursday.

Redoubt Reporter

Anthropology of religion might sound like a history class, examining how religion has influenced cultures, societies and political structures throughout the ages.

But on Thursday, the class at Kenai Peninsula College’s Kenai River Campus was very much a current event, with guest speakers who have been associated with those linked to some of the most gripping events in the nation’s, Alaska’s and the Kenai Peninsula’s recent past — the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, the 2008 shooting at Central Peninsula Hospital, and the arrest of militia activists in Fairbanks earlier this month for allegedly plotting to kidnap and kill Alaska State Troopers, judges and others.

Norm Olson and Ray Southwell, founders and former leaders of the Michigan Militia, and current leaders of the Alaska Citizens Militia and their Freedom Church, based in Nikiski, spoke on the significant role religion plays in their lives and political views, and shared their assertion that much of what’s wrong with society and political structures today is that the guiding moral compass and strength of faith that religion provides no longer receives the adherence and priority that it should.

“This study of anthropology of religion has far-reaching implication as far as Americans in this country today,” Olson told the class.

Alan Boraas, anthropology professor at KPC, said he appreciated the opportunity to have his students meet face to face with national figures such as Olson and Southwell, who have been involved with issues of such importance.

“The students have learned a lot in the sense of how to deal with challenging ideas they don’t necessarily agree with. And that’s the purpose of education,” Boraas said.

Throughout human history religion has affected politics, Olson said, citing particularly the times of Roman Emperor Constantine, who is said to have seen a vision of a cross and “in hoc signo vinces” — in this sign conquer — above the battlefield in 312. Today, Olson said, other signs have become the banner to live, conquer and govern by — those of the dollar, the euro, the yen and the ruble.

“There is a massive shift in our thinking in America just in the last 50 years. We have gone away from our traditional beliefs,” Olson said.

Every Sunday in the multiethnic neighborhood he grew up in outside Detroit, Olson said that all the families piled into their cars and headed off to church, even if they were different denominations serving different faiths and diverse ethnicities.

“Today you don’t see that much anymore. You wonder, ‘Where are these people today? Where do they derive their strength? What do they look to for their sustenance and their leadership? Who now gives the laws today?’” Olson said. “We don’t look at the God of glory — the Jehovah, Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We look now to corporations and to government to give us all that we need, from cradle to grave.”

Olson and Southwell support the separation of church and state as envisioned by the Founding Fathers, with no state-sanctioned church and people free to follow whatever religion they choose. But the country — and, indeed, the world, they say — has gotten off track in no longer recognizing that man’s law, and the governments created to administer it, is subordinate to God’s law, Olson said. Throughout the hour-and-15-minute class the militia leaders expounded on their view that this shift has had consequences throughout the whole of society — to the overstepping of government, the stripping away of people’s rights, an economy on the brink of collapse and the diminishment of citizens’ self-reliance.

“We’re on a very perilous road trip to a very uncertain future, and a very fearful future. There is a sense of anxiety and foreboding, I think, that is getting worse,” Olson said. “The corporations, the central government, has taken away our rights and has replaced that with these assurances that it will take care of us. We have lost our independence. We’ve lost that spirit of self-sufficiency, independence, self-reliance and reliance upon each other in the community,” Olson said.

Over time, people have ceded more and more authority to the government, Olson said.

“Down through the ages we have given away more power, slowly but progressively, to the government. The government has consolidated and condensed and amassed its power and in that power has become corrupted absolutely. All three branches of the government today are conspiring against the rights of the will of the people,” Olson said.

That can be seen in many venues today, he and Southwell said, especially the growth and deregulation of corporations. Once upon a time corporations were required to provide some good for humanity, and monopolies — like the railroad and oil industries — were busted up to allow for competition. Today corporations are free to operate solely for profit and can conglomerate with the blessing of government — such as the mergers of media corporations and the pending acquisition of T-Mobile by AT&T, Southwell said. In Alaska, he said, some of the ramifications of this are oil spills from lack of investment in maintenance — “It’s a lot easier for a big corporation to pay a fine than to change,” Olson said — and the possibility of Pebble Mine being permitted to proceed.

“We have allowed the corporate monopolies to expand. Pebble Mine. What is it? It’s a

Ray Southwell, left, a founder of the Alaska Citizens Militia, based in Nikiski, talks about how his religious faith gives him strength to stand for his beliefs in his efforts to effect political change.

corporate monopoly. It’s this massive thing. And what’s our only hope? We have to turn to the federal government and beg them, ‘Please federal government, stop this terrible, terrible thing,’” Southwell said. “Am I opposed to mining? Absolutely not. If they could convince me that somewhere on the globe this has been accomplished safely then I will believe that technology has advanced. I don’t believe the technology is there yet. Why would we take the risk? Why? Because the corporations have the power and the money.”

A particular area of focus for the militia movement, and one that generated questions from the KPC students, is gun control. Citing Madison’s Federalist Papers, the writings of Patrick Henry, the Bill of Rights and Supreme Court decisions, Southwell and Olson said that the Founding Fathers’ intention for the Second Amendment was for citizens to have the ability to protect themselves and their property from bandits and wild animals, but also to act as a deterrent against governmental encroachment.

Citizens should have the right to possess weapons on par with the standard military arms of the day, Olson said. In the Revolutionary War, that meant muskets. Today, that means automatic rifles and anything else with which U.S. soliders regularly arm themselves. But not, as students wanted to know, exotic weapons, such as tanks, grenade launchers and chemical or nuclear weapons, Olson said.

“Jefferson said over and over that the right of the people to keep arms for their own defense against tyranny, a tyrannical government, was necessary,” Olson said.

They emphasized their point that the Bill of Rights does not grant the rights listed therein, but merely codifies them.

“We believe that God gave us rights. That’s what the Founding Fathers believed. These are inalienable rights — life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, among others,” Olson said. “These are rights from God. And if we believe these rights are from government or that these rights are granted to us by the Constitution we are definitely wrong. The Constitution grants no rights. The Constitution is a limiting document upon government,” Olson said.

v v v

Olson and Southwell paint a bleak picture of society today, and foresee an even more dire future.

“I believe we’ve got hard times coming. I’m preparing — we buy an extra bag of rice every time we go to the store, and I mean the 50-pounders,” Olson said. “We’ve got the monster of shortages coming, and the monster of inflation coming, and no matter what you believe eschatologically or religiously or theologically or whatever else you believe, you can mark that down as a sure thing. Math doesn’t lie. Inflation is going to wipe us out pretty soon.”

These hard times may or may not be signs of the apocalypse foretold in the Bible, depending on which understanding of the Rapture is espoused. There are three stances on the Rapture, Olson said — pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation and post-tribulation.

Those who believe in the Rapture believe hard times — a period of tribulation — will come to the world before the end. Olson said he believes there will be two phases to this seven-year tribulation. In the first 3.5 years, the Antichrist will be established to be worshipped as having the power of God. In the following 3.5 years, God will loose his wrath upon the Earth. At some point, God will send Jesus back to Earth to collect his followers — an event called the Rapture.

Those who believe in pre-tribulation Rapture think Jesus will come for his followers before the tribulation, and that believers will thus be spared the hard times. Those who believe in mid-tribulation rapture Rapture think Jesus will return at the midpoint of the tribulation, and those believing in post-tribulation Rapture think the faithful will have to endure the entire tribulation before being rescued. These beliefs can significantly shape how one sees and reacts to the world.

A belief in post-tribulation Rapture could result in a devotion to do anything necessary to prove one’s devotion to God — perhaps even including sacrificing lives and no longer following the rules of man. David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, who died in a showdown with federal officers in Waco, Texas, in 1993, are thought to have espoused the post-tribulation belief.

A pre-tribulation belief can lead believers to not be motivated to help right society as it goes wrong.

“Pre-tribulation rapture certainly weakens Christians,” Olson said. “If you think that Christ is coming back this afternoon, why would you ever change anything? I’ve got my ticket; I’m waiting for the hallelujah express to come take me off to jubilee land. Why should I stand up? Why should I risk anything?”

Olson said he is a mid-tribulation believer, which drives his insistence that the faithful should attempt to enact change. Southwell said he doesn’t think the end days are yet here and agrees that change must be pursued for the benefit of forthcoming generations.

“I don’t fear death, I don’t fear the government, what I fear is the economic catastrophe that my children and grandchildren are going to be faced with,” Southwell said. “… It’s not about me. It’s about what I leave my children. They’re going to stand over my grave someday and ask me what I did at this time in history to change it.”

By and large, citizens today have lost sight of their inalienable rights from God and have allowed themselves to become enslaved to government and corporate control through fear, Olson and Southwell said.

“The fear of loss is much stronger than the hope of gain,” Olson said. “It feeds into just about everything that we’re talking about. So you’re frightened that you might lose your job, you might be cut hours, you might have a run-in, something’s going to jeopardize your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, and so you give in to any kind of a pressure, any kind of a threat of change. So you squash yourself down, you don’t speak up, you don’t stand up, you don’t stand for what you really believe in.”

Both said that it is their religion and faith that gives them strength to stand for their beliefs.

“I’m able to do that because my religion has given me the basis of the faith to stand, because I’m doing what’s right, whatever that cost might be, and it has cost me a great deal,” Southwell said.

Southwell got a job as an emergency-room nurse at Central Peninsula Hospital after he, Olson, their wives and others from the Michigan Militia movement moved to Nikiski in the mid-2000s. Support for the militia movement, and Olson and Southwell’s leadership of the Michigan Militia organization, changed after the Oklahoma City bombing, because the convicted bomber, Timothy McVeigh, had ties to the militia. Michigan’s economy took a downturn, and Olson and Southwell decided to move to Alaska, seeking a climate where they could be self-sufficient off the land and prepare for the economic collapse they believe is coming.

Southwell got involved in the hospital’s union leadership, serving as a grievance officer. He said that he noted a change in the treatment of workers when a new administration took over in 2006 — intimidation, bullying and forcing out long-term, higher-paid employees, he said.

After fired hospital employee Joseph Marchetti went on a shooting spree at the hospital Nov. 26, 2008, killing one and wounding another before being shot and killed by troopers, Southwell said he felt he needed to be more public about his views of the administration, because it might prevent something similar from happening again. He since had his wages garnished for failure to pay taxes, and was fired last year. He has filed an appeal with the National Labor Relations Board to protest his firing, he said. Even to the point of losing his job, Southwell said he felt driven to speak out after the shooting.

“At the time I felt somewhat responsible because I didn’t expose, or talk or intervene with the borough assembly, or even at the hospital board level. I often wondered, if Joseph knew I was there, that there was somebody that he could have talked to,” Southwell said. “When I started going public and I started being so visible I started having person after person after person coming to me, employees at the hospital, and I found ways for them to take their anger, their fear, their frustration and direct it to a constructive way, or a safe way.”

Southwell said that counseling people is a large part of what they do as leaders in the militia and Freedom Church.

“We have people coming to us who are ready to go ballistic, ready to go postal, and we have to pull them down from the trees, pull them back from the edge and quantify and qualify their fear,” Olson said.

There are three responses to fear, he said — ignore it, run from it or examine it. He likened what he and Southwell do in individual counseling and encounter groups as parents turning the lights on for kids afraid of the dark.

“There are people who live under constant fear — of the government and the bad guys and the cops and everything else,” Olson said. “I had a lady call me from New York. She was frightened. … She was convinced that she was under surveillance — for whatever reason, it doesn’t matter, you create your boogeyman if you are allowed to leave them in your mind.

“You can see the fear and identify it and defend against it, or you can run from the things that you’ll never know,” he said.

Boraas asked if encouraging people to question government and stand for their beliefs might enable someone who is not rational to do something violent, like McVeigh. Olson said the militia movement is about demonstrating of the will to stand for their rights, rather than encouraging violence.

“But also, once in a while, a couple get away from us,” Olson said. “Did Tim McVeigh get away from us?”

McVeigh came into the militia movement on the fringes and didn’t seek Olson’s counsel, he said. Olson said he found McVeigh to be an honorable man, and posited that perhaps there is more to McVeigh’s story — that he was set up, or a pawn in larger, global forces.

“I believe he, being a military man (as is Olson, retired from the Air Force), didn’t want to break bread with me because he knew where things could go and he didn’t want me to be destroyed by something that he would do. He was an individual acting on his own beliefs. Or was he handled by the government? There’s that theory out there,” Olson said.

Olson and Southwell also believe there is more to the story of Schaeffer Cox, organizer of the Alaska Peacemakers Militia based in Fairbanks, than is being reported. Cox has been to the peninsula to speak at Second Amendment Task Force rallies. He was arrested twice in 2010, once on an assault charge after troopers accused him of choking his wife, and again March 17, 2010, on a weapons charge after police said he failed to notify an officer he was carrying a concealed pistol.

Olson said Cox was treated unfairly by the courts, which, in Alaska, need a license to operate and are therefore a corporation, he said. Cox was not allowed to address that issue in court, or use the Constitution in his defense, or appeal to the jurors as judges to consider the legitimacy of the weapons law he was accused of violating, as he says petit juries should be able to do.

“That’s what Schaeffer Cox wanted, ‘Give me a chance to talk to the jurors who could examine this law about if a cop walks up to you and you don’t tell him immediately that you’re carrying a gun concealed all of a sudden you become a felon, over something that may never happen,” Olson said.

Cox and other Fairbanks-area militia activists were arrested March 11 for an alleged plot to capture and kill federal and state officials.

“I can only speculate as to how he got where he is today, and it would all be based on rumors. I don’t have anything definite,” Olson said.

They do maintain support for him.

“I trust Schaeffer Cox,” Southwell said. “I met him. I think he’s an honorable man. I don’t know all the circumstances of what he’s gotten himself into. But I do think once the FBI gets involved in this type of situation, I don’t believe anything that is said. I don’t believe anything the FBI ever says. I don’t think they can be trusted.”

Olson said he thinks Cox was framed.

“I believe he was set up. I believe there is very deep political powers behind this to minimize his effectiveness, to cut the legs out from under Joe Miller with this Bill Fulton involvement. They say Alaska is the state of corruption. It’s the most corrupt state of all the 50 states.”

Olson said he doesn’t have information on the situation in Fairbanks, nor an explanation for the disappearance of William Fulton, owner of the Drop Zone military surplus store in Anchorage. Fulton has ties to the state’s militias and had served as a hired security guard for Senate candidate Miller. He is thought to possibly be an informant who worked with the FBI on the sting operation against Cox and others.

Olson in no way equated Cox to Koresch or McVeigh, but did note that all have shown resolve in standing for their personal beliefs.

Faith, which comes through religion, can give strength to stand for one’s beliefs, even in uncertain and difficult times, he said.

Southwell, now unemployed and awaiting the results of his appeal to the National Labor Relations Board, can attest to that.

“I am in fear, because we don’t know what tomorrow is going to bring because of the economic calamity that I have brought upon myself because of my stand,” he said. “But it’s my faith that I know that God is working in my life that I can face this fear … and that’s the religious part. How do we face fear? Ideally, if my faith was strong enough, I’d have no fear. But it’s not there yet. Maybe someday it will be.”

Faith is crucial in trying to right what has gone awry with the economy and government today, Olson said.

“Where’s this idea of freedom come from? Is that something that is taught to us or is that something that we instinctually or innately or fundamentally have because we are cognitive individuals aware of own existence and knowing that there’s something better out there for us?” Olson said. “I think that’s part of this spiritual aspect of what drives everything.”

Yet another failing of government today is underestimating the strength that can come from such spirituality, he said.

“I don’t think the federal government ever really understood the convictions of people like that (Koresch). Remember, we’ve got a war going on — ‘in this sign conquer.’ Then what happens when these interests (followers of the sign of the cross) go up against these interests (followers of the sign of currency)? Many times the government doesn’t really know what it’s dealing with because it’s never seen people who are so loyal to their beliefs that they’re willing to sacrifice all, even their own lives.”

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49 Comments

Filed under Kenai Peninsula College, militia

49 responses to “Militia 101 — Nikiski militia leaders address KPC class about religion, society

  1. analaskancitizen

    Thank you Alan Boras and the Redoubt Reporter for helping to shine a light in this area. While I do cringe when they talk about their views of “faith” and “religion” and “Christianity,” it’s good for us to be aware of their presence in our community. I’d just like to say that, in my opinion, this is their own take on Christianity and how one (as a “Christian) responds to communities and our government.
    I love when Thomas Jefferson is quoted since he didn’t much like the Bible the way it was written and so went through and took out the parts he didn’t agree with. And those extra sacks of rice? I don’t think it’s so there will be some to share with neighbors – unless you are in the same mindset.

  2. ronl

    @analaskancitizen

    I think you are quite mistaken. Benevolence to ones community and neighbors is one of the true purposes of a Militia. It provides security if society breaks down, and we are not far from a breaking point now with the economy the way it is. If china refuses to buy our T bonds, or Japan sells theirs to rebuild their country, the s*** will hit the fan on a national level.

    Dont think riots cant occur here when you have a worthless dollar, people are hungry, and uncle sugar has nothing free to give you.

    For your own well being, you better go buy you and your family afew bags of rice and beans, and consider helping those not so fortunate to have done the same and had squandered their money on Ipods and Nikes.

    Just sayin…

  3. anrsvc

    ronl,

    I would suggest that conspiring to kill American Citizens and justifying it as charity would give most some reasonable opportunity for pause. I am sure that the spouses and children of those that the militia intended to kill would not feel the warm fuzzies that you are trying to sell concerning the intent of the militia.

  4. Nikskyky

    The things we’ll say in war…

    Also from Commander Pastor Olson:

    Some of you may think that a Christian is a pacifist, a weakling, a jelly-spined whimp who doesn’t know how to kill with dispassion and detactment.

    It’s about time we clear up the myths. It’s about time we put forth the fact that Christian warriors are MORE able to kill and to destroy with dispassion and detatchment than those who have no world-view or understanding of what it means to stand for righteousness and justice! My personal feeling is that I’d rather stand with men/women who understand their ROLE in the fight than those who merely want to survive.

    I have the qualifications to speak to the issues.. I’ve been in this for a long time and I have NO TIME for pacifistic whimps who quote scripture and threaten me with God’s judgment if I don’t bow down and kiss the boots of tyrants!!!!.

    If you want to talk about the REAL issues of righteousness againt unrighteousness, the war of light against darkness, please contact me directly. I have NO TIME FOR CHRISTIANS who are hiding under the old idea that we are to “Love our enemies”…. Jesus said, “Love YOUR enemies….” He never said that we are to love HIS enemies.

    If you’re with me in this struggle, we’re going to hang on to the end. I’m a Christian, but a Christian who believes as a SOLDIER should. I’m not what you think…. Perhaps you’ve been brainwashed by the idea that Christians are whimps, wishy-washy, unwilling to take a stand.

    If God wanted a bunch of Bill Grahams in the military, He’d take care of it. But God has called warriors to kill and to destroy without remorse or conscience for causes higher than one’s own survival. Did you get that? I want warriors to stand with me… Not a bunch of Scripture quoting people who think God OWES us victory simply because we have a claim on Him.

    If you’re in this, fine…. If you can’t hack it, get out now!

    Scripture is so wonderfully fungible. And faith has no moorings; especially in its rejection of science, evidence, and empiricism. Add a healthy dose of victim mentality, a little conspiracy thinking, lots of moral outrage, a little hero complex, authoritarian habits, free-loader temptations (Southwell was not an exception in this crowd in his tax evasions), etc..

    Your Christian faith probably is somewhat different, I suppose. That fits. Scripture is fungible and faith has no moorings.

  5. Ray Southwell

    Here is one of those crazy conspiracy theories that you ignore. I am sure there is no science behind it, only the SEC filings. Somehow my faith gives me the courage to take on the real threats to the USA- the corporations in control of it.

    It is obvious your lack of faith, outside yourself, only allows attacks on people of faith. How about going after the corporations. An old man in the US Senate has shown his courage, I wonder about his faith?

    Senator Sanders from Vermont explains his top ten corporations that pay no federal income taxes and several times get rebates. And there are people complaining because I do not file with my friends at the IRS. I guess my friends are not as powerful as the friends the corporations have. That’s all right. We the people are more than willing to give our Social Security check back and increase taxes to help decrease the deficit. After all they had no difficulty taking 90% of my paycheck for months before I was fired.

    Here is Bernie Sanders presentation to the US Senate on March 30, 2011. Ya gotta love this guy.

    http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/media/view/?id=5100ac74-8161-426b-84e9-89446b426914

  6. It doesn’t really matter what you and others believe about the militia.
    The important thing to remember is that WE believe!

  7. Ray Southwell

    Norm,
    I finally understand the difference in our belief system and the belief system of those who have written above.

    I spent two hours last night at the Kenai Senior Center and had dialog with members of our community, concerning the governance of our hospital.
    The CEO was there, Politicians, Board members, Task Force members, the Mayor and people from the community.

    In the past, I did not understand why many of our community leaders rejected hearing all sides of the issue. I now realize why they reject hearing from all sides. It is based on their belief system.

    Everyone present last night is in fear of the economic future of the hospital, based on current national economic conditions. Something needs to change, but what?

    Many individuals are frightened and look to corporate government to save them. Over and over last night many community leaders talked about how a corporation can save our community hospital.

    You and I recognize and have shown the failings of corporate America. We understand that we the people have the answers for our community and the hospital. Those answers are within all of us in the community.

    Others only believe in government and the corporations behind it. Their belief is the corporation/government can and will take care of everything when the need arises. I wonder if they remember Hurricane Katrina?

  8. Marcus

    First of all, Norm, your eschatological views are mistaken. There are three eschatological perspectives: Pre-millennialism, A-millennialism, and Post-millennialism. Your Pre-, Mid-, and Post-tribulation categories are all Pre-millennial perspectives. Do some reading.

    Second, I too was at the meeting, Ray, and don’t share your interpretation/accusations that “others” believe in government and the corporations behind it.” T’ain’t that simple. Why would you doubt and cast such aspersions on your neighbors? Do you actually think you and Norm are the only one that have it all figured out? The only ones trying to do what they think best?

    Finally, yes, corporate America has its share of failings. But the answers we all seek transcend xenophobic, Apocalypse-now, gun ‘n guts, black-helicopters demagoguery.

    “For not with swords loud clashing, or roll of stirring drums,
    With deeds of love and mercy the heavenly kingdom comes.”

    Remember that old Christian hymn?

  9. Ray Southwell

    Marcus,
    You wrote- “I too was at the meeting, Ray, and don’t share your interpretation/accusations that “others” believe in government and the corporations behind it.” T’ain’t that simple.”

    OK, please explain what you heard at the meeting? Excluding my opinion and yours.

    I was not casting doubt on my neighbors. I was explaining why some think differently. It is based on our different belief systems.

    Just for the record, my strongest fear is the type of government and country I am leaving my children and grandchildren. Not sure where you heard about Black-Helicopters. What wild things have you been reading?

    BTW-I do not believe we are heading to an apocalypse, just an economic colapse. Last time the world had an economic colapse, they called it the “Dark Ages.” Learn from history or repeat it.

    • Marcus

      I heard a lot of different opinions, Ray, some of which I agreed with, some of which I didn’t. What I didn’t do was to judge or second-guess my neighbor’s motives, since whatever yardstick I use will, so it’s said, will be used on me.

      What wild things have I been reading? Try Norm’s letter in today’s paper.

      Don’t know what history books you’ve been reading about the so-called Dark Ages, but they weren’t on my list. In the end, to quote Voltaire, “History is [sometimes] a pack of tricks we play upon the dead.” Credo ut intelligam, Ray . . . what we believe defines what we henceforward understand. Lots of folks, including me, read history without coming to the same dire conclusions as you do.

      But then I’m a Post-millennialist. . . . ;-)

  10. Ray Southwell

    Marcus,
    You are far more educated than I. I look at things more simply. Sometimes those higher educated people have such lofty thoughts it is of little practical good.

    I have been in Health care for over 40 years. Not in management but at the bedside. In the trenches if you will. Like a soldier I know what I need, in the delivery of the care I give.

    I look at things simply and straight forward. Not bright enough to talk with such skill and understanding as yourself.

    The opinion, I heard the other night; was our hospital will be in economic problems in the near future. I do not believe anyone I heard questioned that theme.
    The question discussed- what is best to do about it? I only heard two general answers.

    One answer was to sell, trade, joint venture with for-profit corporation. The second was to keep our hospital under local control in some form or another.
    Did you hear something different?

    I am not questioning my neighbor’s motives, who believe different than I. Many believe in something that is and has been destroying the economic vitality of the globe, mega-corporations.

    You probably have read details leading up to the “Dark Ages.” Here is Wikipedia definition-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages

    Do you disagree? If so jump into Wikipedia and document where they are wrong and change their definition.

    The global economic power of the Roman Empire collapsed and so did the world economy.

    Today, the global economic power of the United States Empire is in collapse and so is the world economy.

    Simply look throughout Europe, the Mid-East and North Africa. Do you think these uprisings of the people are over leadership or economics? The good -news, the people can make a difference if they rise up and take control of the multinational corporations.

    BTW according to the Inspector General of the TARP (Neil Barofsky-he resigned March 30,2011), those banks “ too big to fail”, are now 20% bigger than in 2008.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/opinion/30barofsky.html

    Oh, I almost forgot, those banks are still using the same business practices of the past.
    I did not see anything about “Black-helicopters” in Norms Letter today. Did I miss something?

  11. Nikskyky

    Faith may give a person courage, but it doesn’t correct thinking errors.

  12. “the only thing timothy did wrong was to get caught”
    the psychotic.

  13. Ray Southwell

    Nikskyky,
    “Thinking errors”

    I was at the Borough Assembly meeting last night. There were three history teachers that presented a new way of teaching, teleconferencing. The three taught at three different schools on the Peninsula. They each had different strengths in their approach on teaching history. They taught each other’s class with the information on the Internet and other places.

    They all talked about knowledge. It is this knowledge obtained from information that gives us our ability to reason or think about the information obtained. They stated Knowledge comes from information. What is the point of information and knowledge if we do not think it through and come to a conclusion?

    You claim some have “thinking errors.” Was it directed towards me? I think so. Ok-my thinking or knowledge comes from information. What information, have I presented that documents an error in my thinking?

    Remember we are talking about information that forms thinking.

  14. Nikskyky

    Ray, my statement, “Faith may give a person courage, but it doesn’t correct thinking errors” was directed to the commonly shared idea, at least implicitly, that faith is a recommended, preferable, viable, practical, worthwhile, sustainable, or even rational way-of-knowing or epistemology. For precisely the reason I stated, I believe it is not (preferable, viable, practical, worthwhile, sustainable, or rational): faith (as a way of knowing) does not correct thinking errors.

    In contrast, as I alluded to in an earlier post, scientific method, empiricism, and the collection and evaluation of better evidence all actively embrace the explicit goal of correcting thinking errors (as well as other kinds of errors) and improving knowledge with ever-better information and application-of-information including logic, modeling, statistics, theory, interpretation, etc..

    Faith does not preclude the use of evidence on its behalf, but to the extent it privileges faith over evidence, which is its inherent appeal, I believe that privileging is its profound epistemological shortcoming. Faith is a tempting option to people for a myriad of reasons, and partly because that’s so, direct and indirect appeals to faith are favored by demagogues, demagogue-wannabes, and Christianists.

  15. Marcus

    Nikskyky,

    Thanks for the reference . . absolutely unbelievable!

    Changing the subject, your remark that “. . the commonly shared idea, at least implicitly, that faith is a recommended, preferable, viable, practical, worthwhile, sustainable, or even rational way-of-knowing or epistemology” needs, I think, some clarification. Epistemologically speaking, we all “know” by faith whether Christian, Jew, Materialist, Empiricist, Muslim, or whatever.

    Even the most dedicated Scientific/Philosophical Materialist proceeds from his belief [read "faith"] that the material cosmos is all there is, that objective, impersonal truth exists, and that such can be found and understood.

    One’s “faith,” as it were, defines all that follows, one’s world-view if you will. St. Anselm’s Credo Ut Intelligam summarizes it nicely: “I believe that I might understand.” Have you ever read any of Michael Polanyi?

    Faith isn’t the problem.

  16. Nikskyky

    Marcus, you claimed that “Epistemologically speaking, we all ‘know’ by faith whether Christian, Jew, Materialist, Empiricist, Muslim, or whatever” … even with regard to “Scientific/Philosophical Materialism.” From my perspective in the context of what I was saying, this claim serves less to clarify than it does to revivify a common obfuscation. That obfuscation is the conflation of religious faith with (faith underlying) science or empiricism as if there were no value in recognizing ontological differences between practices of faith and practice of science or empiricism.

    Even tacit “faith,” as I infer you might call it, in science tends to be provisional significantly in a way it does not in religion and other contexts.

    My essential claim was much more discrete than to say simply that “Faith is the problem.” Rather, my essential claim was “faith (as a way of knowing) does not correct thinking errors,” and to that extent it is a big problem. “Faith may give a person courage,” I said, “but it doesn’t correct thinking errors.” “To the extent faith is privileged over evidence, that is its profound epistemological shortcoming.” “Scripture is fungible, and faith has no moorings.”

    That is not a wholesale rejection of faith. It is rejection of wholesale, indiscriminate embrace of faith and the thinking errors that result forthwith.

    Yes, I’ve read Polanyi, and many of his predecessors and successors, and I’d love to go on about him with you, but that would really be changing the subject, which derives from a local example of armed Christian(ist) soldiers-in-faith eager to defend you and the nation from tyrants and enemies of god [among us] that their faith has so well provisioned them to see. After all, “Jesus said, ‘Love YOUR enemies….’ He never said that we are to love HIS enemies.”

  17. Marcus

    Well noted . .

  18. Ray Southwell

    Marcus and Nikskysky,
    You guys are way out there. My faith is much simpler than yours. It is the belief that all people are inherently a failure/sinner. People’s primary focus is on self interest. That is why we are in trouble in this nation and the world. We have forgotten the sinful nature of man’s self interest.

    God through his love, for all people, sent his son Jesus to pay the price for my sins. He was sinless.

    I never understood the love God had for people until I had my own children.

    I never understood the pain and suffering he went through until I suffered the worst pain I ever had when I had a heart attack a few years ago. I am sure his pain was worse. Mine only lasted a few hours.

    This simple belief in God and belief in the finished work of Jesus allows me to step out in faith knowing God is working his will and way in my life.
    My question to both of you. What are you doing to change things in this corrupt world?

    I support all belief systems. I have a several Muslim friends I have worked with in the past. Recently one of them asked about the hate in America. Here is my response to him.

    Said, (Pronounced si-ad)
    Hatred is based on fear. Frequently fear is justified because of past experiences. The American people have been taught we should be fearful of individuals expressing a faith system such as yours. So-is the fear based on truth or a lie?

    I have had the blessing of working by your side in the past. It was a great opportunity to hear about your faith. We do not agree, but I respect your faith and will defend your right to enjoy your beliefs.

    Now comes the question why the fear, from other people, concerning your faith?

    It is based, in part, on believed past experiences. I believe it is perpetuated by corporate America.

    Throughout all history powerful people try to enslave the individual people. The best approach to accomplish this goal is to divide, us, the people. If the people came together we could understand the lies government is telling us and stop the corporation.

    Within the USA, in the 1920’s, the corporate mining companies would divide the people. When the white miners went on strike, the corporations would bring in blacks and immigrants to work the mines. It was to divide the people. Eventually people hated blacks and immigrants. It still holds true today.

    The corporate government tells us to fear you. It has worked. People now fear you and want the government to “protect us.” We instituted the “Patriot Act.” based on fear.

    You and I understand why the USA is in the middle east-OIL. The American people believe we must fear the people there and accept our military involvement. The corporations are in control of our governments and have accomplished dividing the people of the world.

    Ray

  19. ” My faith is much simpler than yours. It is the belief that all people are inherently a failure/sinner. People’s primary focus is on self interest.”

    so…. why don’t you just give up already.

    or are you being selfish?
    as to your being a failure? true
    not only are your squad mates feeding you they are most likely
    supplying you with gas so you can “volunteer” at the food bank.

    bedbugs are parasites, selfish at that, just gorging away.

  20. Ray Southwell

    leewaytoo,
    Thank you for your clarity that I am a failure. I accepted that many years ago. Because of my failings, as a sinner, I have accepted Jesus as my savior and he paid the price for my sins. No problem, admitted as charged.

    Within our culture and government, there was a time most people accepted the truth of the failings of persons. We the people understood that principle of self interest and maintained checks and balances against the sinful nature of man.

    Today, we do not believe that simple truth. We have eliminated the checks and balances on corporate America who by legal definition are “persons.”

    Now our elected politicians are in an argument over “budget cuts.” (smoke and mirrors) While they argue this foolishly, the checks and balances are gone for the Banking corporations. The five banks “too big to fail” are now 20% bigger than in 2008. Citigroup had record profits last year of $ 4 billion dollars and paid no federal income taxes.

    Last year, the SEC charged Citigroup with “misleading investors.” Citigroup and two executives “without admitting or denying the SEC’s allegations” paid fines. The corporate person paid $75 million of their $4 billion tax free profits. The CFO paid $100,000 of his $19,400,000 salary.
    (see- http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2010/2010-136.htm

    Somehow you feel fortunate the government monitors me and lets the “too big to fail” banks take more control of our government. You see me as a bigger threat than the corporate control of America.

    My parent’s generation have been called the “greatest generation” History will call my generation the foolish or selfish generation.

  21. analaskancitizen

    Once again, I have to say, you have the right to your opinion but it is just that. The “we” always seems to state or imply that YOU have the answer and the rest of us have opinions and thoughts that YOU know are wrong because somehow you can have conclusions for both yourself and everyone else. I have no problem with you calling yourself “foolish and selfish” but based on the life I am trying to lead,based on my Christian beliefs, I’m trying for more – even though perfection is beyond my reach.

  22. Nikskyky

    Ray asked, “What are you doing to change things in this corrupt world?”

    Among a myriad of other things, I try to address not so much “this corrupt world,” but corruption in this still-beautiful world whose future I, too, care about.

    For example, in public forums I sometimes try to mitigate the corruption of peoples’ thinking that results significantly from some common, but well-studied thinking errors.

    Sometimes I politely will address points of fact, but more often I try to illuminate how most of us are vulnerable in varying degree to the kinds of thinking errors you and your sidekicks (Norm Olson, Schaeffer Cox, Bob Bird, Kath McCubbins-Carlson, Elizibeth Daniels, etc.) have exhibited with such intensity: distortions rooted in fear and dispensationalist (end-times-oriented) religion (gone awry), confirmation bias, fallacious reasoning, conspiracy thinking, overconfidence effect, fundamental attribution error, and other cognitive biases. Google them to understand and become a better person.

    I also seek to illuminate potential deleterious effects of war-mongers among us, especially those among us who might think they uniquely can distinguish god’s enemies — and are prepared to shoot them “in self-defense.” In other words, too, I find ways actively to oppose the gun-waving, rhetorical, us-against-the-enemy, belligerence of people who share the modern day Conservative, tea-party, militia, and Christianist mind-set.

    That said, if this were a conversation less about you, your militia, and your thinking, in other venues I also would participate to share your concerns about the disproportionate role on policy (and budget) of Wall Street; the disproportionate influence of very large corporations (with a fiduciary duty to narrowly focus on their own short-term profits at the expense to so many other important things); and problems with corporate person-hood, revolving-door lobbying/governing, and the “Citizens United” decision.

    In all these things, I privilege better evidence and self-correction over faith, and I resist faith in cases where explicit uncertainty is more honest.

  23. Ray Southwell

    Analaskancitizens,
    We all have opinions. I always enjoy discussing the differences of opinions.

    I accept your thoughts. I am asking you to document where your thoughts are from. Also discredit what evidence I have presented. What I see is no documentation of your opinions. I accept your opinions and believe they are based on the corporate manipulation of the media.

    Great book, “Manufacturing Consent” by Noam Chomsky. He explains, in great detail, much of the public opinion creation on misinformation.

  24. Ray Southwell

    Nikskyky,
    We agree we both care about the future. We also agree on the corporate control of the government.

    You are correct I am in fear of the future. This fear is based on my observations and understanding history. It is love for my children and grandchildren that I stand. Talk is great but it does not change things. We just get the same political rhetoric from both parties.

    I do not believe we are in the biblical last days. I believe this belief weakens Christians into thinking there is nothing they can do. They frequently think God will protect them from future calamity.

    I believe we face difficult times, in the near future. It is not the judgment of God on man, but the result of unchecked man’s behavior. The future calamity we face is the net result of unchecked self-interest. It is not new. Look throughout the last century.

    If you think this is based on extreme thinking, ask the gun dealers in the community. There are record gun sales month after month. It is not about hunting.

    • Nikskyky

      Ray.

      Assuming you distinguish between “influence” and “control,” that would help explain your exaggerated claim that we both agree that corporations “control” the government after I merely had acknowledged their “disproportionate influence.”

      It also fits with your paranoid style and conspiracy mindset.

      Based on my reading, I observe this kind of shift is common in the way you and your confused, frightened, Christianist, faith-based, gun-waving cohort interprets the world. You regularly oversimplify and/or exaggerate what is complex and uncertain; you seek out and pass on among yourselves the most alarming, unfortunately frequently erroneous, weakly substantiated, or unsubstantiated claims; and you do so in ways that invite simplistic “solutions” on one hand, and belligerence on the other.

      Indeed, the entire notion itself of rag-tag militias taking active, armed opposition to this nation’s (“tyrannical”) military and police structures is simplistic, anachronistic, and anything but strategic. Even supposing some “future calamity” rendering larger forces irrelevant, your violent, authoritarian assumptions and methods are recipe for even more of a dystopic future. Yuk.

      And by the way, in case you haven’t noticed, your groups’ fear-induced, fear-inducing patriotic emphasis on “2nd Amendment” issues significantly is supported by and propagandized (astro-turfing, etc.) by a large corporate weapons-manufacturing lobby. ‘Gotta love the irony.

  25. analaskancitizen

    document MY thoughts? a lifetime of education and experience and faith and listening and learning (and mistakes) and working and volunteering and being a child, parent, grandparent, friend, community member, taxpayer, longtime Alaskan, patient, caregiver etc.

  26. Marcus

    Actually, Ray, I think the guy said “disproportionate influence,” which is not at all the same as “corporate control” of the government. The original text of Eisenhower’s famous warning about the military-industrial complex was “military-industrial-congressional” complex. And here we are.

    Few would argue that multi-national corporations and other private interests exert more influence in DC that might be good for the people, but corporations, as such, are not the problem. A corporation is neither good nor evil. You have never met a corporation and never will . . a corporation is an abstraction, a legal structure, nothing more. Nor is self-interest the problem.

    Nor is the “government,” the state, the problem. The state, whether tribe, clan, city-state, or nation, is man’s inescapable, corporate condition, instituted as such by God.

    We are the problem. We are still the government. The government lives beyond its means? How about the average American? The roots of greed, inflation, and other social evils lie in larcenous, human hearts whether those hearts reside in Washington or Waco.

    As for any “good ol’ days” when folks were more self-sufficient, yes, there’s something to that, but those were also the good ol’ days of soup-lines, hobos, racial bigotry, Jim Crow, lynchings, Jew-hating, segregation and more. Kinda depends on how one defines “progress.”

    Give it a rest. Sell your guns, and buy a set of watercolors. Revolution ain’t the answer.

  27. Ray Southwell

    Marcus,
    There are three issues I would like to discuss concerning the post above.

    First, man’s improvement on how we treat our fellow man. Since the creation of the country (note I said country not government) man has always shown his true nature.

    Our founders talked about “all men are created equal.” The founders had lofty ideals, but it is an unattainable standard. No generation has maintained such idealistic beliefs. We can talk about our political beliefs and the Constitution (one form of government the country has had) but our sinful nature always breaks through.

    It is too lengthy to discuss all the issues; I will discuss it in the context of the Declaration of Independence and the first two Amendments of the Constitution.

    Today we believe we treat our fellow man better than the past. How many wars are we in and why? The people have always failed in our religious tolerance towards others. We justify our behavior towards others by calling their beliefs “cults.” The Mormons were called names and treated poorly in the past. They searched for a location to express the religious freedom within this country because the lofty ideals of the First Amendment was just that an idea. The Branch Davidians in Waco were destroyed because of the religious intolerance from others. Oh we justified it, as we did slavery, bigotry and racism. I recently posted a letter response to a Muslim friend who questioned why the hatred in this country, towards individuals of his faith. We have not changed since the creation of the nation.

    I have clarity of the Second Amendment intent and history. I have gone back and studied what is available in documentation of the lofty ideals of the founders. Supreme Court Justice Scalia has stated-
    “Constitutional rights are enshrined with the scope they understood to have when the people adopted them, whether or not future legislatures or (yes) even future judges think that scope too broad.”

    Is there a rational discussion of these ideas of the founders? No, just intolerance to thought outside mainstream media presentation of what is the Second Amendment.

    Second, (I also send this to Nikskyky). The disagreement is influence vs. control. Do either of you ask for the documentation that supports my belief the banks are in control of our federal government? No, only name calling of conspiracy theory, paranoid style and intolerance of my faith system. Man never changes.

    Read the Book- “Thirteen Bankers- the Wall Street Takeover and the Next Financial Meltdown” by Simon Johnson and James Kwak

    Read the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission report from January of this year. On second thought it is over 600 pages long, read the summary. In essence Chairman Phil Angelides has stated the Executive and Legislative branch of both parties have failed the people.
    Find it on line here- http://fcic.law.stanford.edu/

    Read the reports from the Special Inspector General of the TARP program, Neil Barorsky. Why would Washington D.C. allow for the 20% increase in the economic size of these banks if they were not in complete control?

    The list of “conspiracy theorists” continue to get lengthy. Name calling does not work folks.

    Third issue-Corporate history.
    Throughout history individuals have controlled others. The rich and powerful place themselves in positions over the people. In the past they were called Oligarchs, Kings, and Queens. The names and faces change, but the behavior (self interest-sinful nature) does not.
    Today these individuals hide behind the name corporation. It is perfect ruling system if the checks and balances are removed. The human person hides behind the corporation and is never held accountable for his actions. Of course the corporation person can never be placed in jail for their behavior. I believe we need the Capitalist form of economic system because it takes the self-interest of man and helps all of mankind. What we have forgotten today is the checks and balance to keep control of those behind their own self interest.

    Not a new behavior. Almost one hundred years ago the corporations of the world were at the precipice of taking complete control. Some people rose up and overthrew their governments and instituted a Communistic form. Around the world today people are rising up to take back their country from corporate banking. (see IMF and World Bank)

    If we do not learn from history we are doomed to repeat it. The most decorated general of WWI wrote a book called “War is a Racket” Smedley Butler talked about corporate profits driving wars in this nation. President Eisenhower was not the first to talk about it. Butler was demonized and called names. Many did not want to hear the truth he presented. The complete truth is often too frightening. It is easier to call people names. In 1937 General Butler stated-
    “Why don’t those damned oil companies fly their flags on their personal property-maybe a flag with a gas pump on it.”

    The militia rose up in the 1920’s in West Virginia. It was called the red-neck wars or the Battle of Blair Mountain. It was a movement against the corporate interests in control of State government-Coal mine companies. It is true the federal government attacked the coal miners’ militia and stopped the frightening. They overpowered the militia with technologies of the day and even dropped bombs on the people.

    Over the next several years there was more anger toward corporate control. What was the result? The current labor laws in existence among other federal laws. Like the banking laws that were established after the Banking collapse of 1929 (Glass-Steagall act of 1933, repealed in 1999). The current protection against corporate abuse is now being destroyed. After all we do not want the “Unions” controlling our lives. It is better to allow the Banks.

    • Marcus

      Gotta decline, Ray, no amount of discussion will ever bridge the gap between the world you live in and the world I live in.

  28. Nikskyky

    Ray, we easily could find ourselves in significant alignment regarding very large corporations, and I’m open to learning with regard to your perception of the “control” of corporations — and their out-sized “influence.”

    And you give some indications of being a reasonably tolerant person, at least in public. To the extent your are, in public and otherwise, I enthusiastically approve.

    Still, you mistake my critiques for “intolerance.” Not so. Even that framing exhibits victim-thinking, another cognitive bias.

    Indeed, what I have tried to illuminate in this thread you persistently ignore: the nature of a host of thinking errors that result in the Alaska Citizen’s Militia and its activities, and ACM’s explicit, active, proclivity to lethal violence among us.

    Yes, my critique includes a commonly shared (even outside your circles) tendency to privilege faith over better evidence, empiricism, and scientific process. Why the critique? Because faith far, far too often serves as a barrier to self-correction. And it leads to arrogance of the sort invited by Norm to suggest that you militia-member soldiers-in-faith might be positioned in such a way as to be able to discern with god “HIS enemies.”

    That’s toxic thinking, with high potency.

  29. Ray Southwell

    Nikskyky,
    Thank you for your civil discourse. I believe you entered this thread with preconceived ideas about me.

    I am sure we may agree in many areas but my religious faith is not one. I understand your concern of “religious people.” With many past experiences, I also lack trust in organized religion.

    I would encourage you to look at the behavior of the sinless Jesus rather than sinful people who make up organized religion. That is what I do.

    I recently spoke to a highly educated individual who was an atheist. Her comment was “Thank God I am an atheist.” Her grandfather is a preacher. She sees God as a punisher, always looking to punish her for her failures as defined by organized religion.

    I do not see God as waiting to punish me. I see the love God has for me-a sinner.

    I always use my name in these posts. I use it so people can challenge what I say about myself. I have lived within this community since 2003. Talk with people that have known me. Ask the nurses in the ED of the hospital. Ask them if they have seen me in any other light but the one I am presenting now.

    The first 8 amendments of the Constitution codified existing rights of the people. The 9th and 10th amendment expresses other rights not mentioned in the first 8.

    Now let’s talk about your perception of the militia.
    First question-what is meant by the Second Amendment?
    Second question-Why did the founders believe the Second Amendment was so important they codified it within the Bill of Rights?

  30. Nikskyky,

    If you get LINK TV on the cable, please start watching. There are some tremendous shows about corporate greed and corporate power. In fact, right now there’s a documentary playing, “The Best Government Money Can Buy” It’s about corporate lobbying.

    The extent of corporate power CONTROLLING the House, Senate, AND Whitehouse is usually passed over by the ordinary observer. In our time we have seen the power of corporate control over the judicial system.
    In fact, the corporate control and management of the Alaska Judiciary was the primary argument of Schaeffer Cox.
    You might be interested in some background how the court system works.
    Check http://www.adl.org/mwd/common.asp

    Are you familiar with the Corporate giant named Monsanto? Did you know that farmers using “heritage” see (non hybred–able to reproduce) are fined if they attempt to use it? With severe shortages coming and the central government’s inability to feed the masses, don’t you think that small farms and gardens should be able to flourish?

    Corporations are to business as centralization of power is to politics.

    Greed and ambition control the purpose of corporations. They care nothing for the average human being in America. They are UN-NEEDED.
    They should be busted and the jobs they control be given back to the people.

    Watch LINK-TV. You’ll get quite an education!!

  31. Nikskyky

    Ahh, well. Right. “CONTROLLING” power.

    Consider how the “CONTROLLING” power of corporations over the House, Senate, and Whitehouse looks much like the “CONTROLLING” power Commander Pastor Olson exerts over people like Pamela Schuffert who write stuff like this:

    Meet Norm Olson, All-American Patriotic Hero For Today
    By Pamela Schuffert presenting investigative journalism from a Biblical Christian perspective-

    Norm Olson is a mighty man of God, a Baptist minister, and has been the leader of more than one Patriotic militia dedicated to preserving America’s legacy of freedom and Christian heritage from the enemies within and without.

    Norm Olson was a leader of the MICHIGAN MILITIA when the notorious government black op of the bombing of THE MURRAH building in OKC took place. My insider source had warned me 3 months before it happened, that it would happen it would be a government black op, that it would be used to take away more freedoms from the American people, and that THE MILITIAS OF AMERICA WOULD BE FALSELY IMPLICATED.

    The NWO [National World Order] hates the organized militias of AMERICA! They are against the NWO and everything it stands for.

    And the very night after the bombing took place, TED KOEPPEL of NIGHTLINE was in a room filled with MEMBERS OF THE MICHIGAN MILITIA and NORM OLSON! Just like my insider source warned me that the militias would be falsely accused.

    Norm Olson recently relocated to ALASKA. NOT that he will find any safety from the NWO there! It is doomed to become AMERICA’S FUTURE GULAG and filled with PRISONER BOXCARS WITH SHACKLES, prison camps, in fact America’s largest known facility. It is filled with Russian military accomplices and underground bases and more. Russian military have been building prison camps for Americans who will resist the NWO in the Aleutian Islands off the coast of Alaska.

    But this only illustrates the kind of brave man Norm Olson really is. NO RETREAT for the mighty man of God in Christ Jesus! ONWARD Christian soldier!

    IF you Google Norm up, beware of the skillfully written hate propaganda that is posted to influence and warp the minds of readers into believing anti-NWO rhetoric. The NWO HATES the Patriotic American! They HATE the militias of America! Beware…

    Pray for Norm and his compatriots in Alaska. They have a BIG battle on their hands regarding confronting the NEW WORLD ORDER agenda in ALASKA…America’s future GULAG.

    -Pamela Schufffert

    Using your logic, Commander Pastor Olson, I suppose you might call this piece of “investigative journalism” an example of “CONTROL.” So, too, for the power you exert over language of a similar logic, vocabulary, tone, and style emitting from your Alaska Citizens Militia list-serve, I suppose. In the past, though, I would have called it undo “influence.”

    “CONTROL” is more frightening than “influence.” “Fear,” of course, like “faith,” figures prominently in the thinking errors of the community that soldier-in-faith Commander Pastor Olson inspires.

    • Nikskyky

      Immediately above, I wrote ‘Using your logic, Commander Pastor Olson, I suppose you might call this piece of “investigative journalism” an example of “CONTROL.”’

      My intent would have been more clear if I had written, “Using your logic, Commander Pastor Olson, I suppose you might call your power over this piece of “investigative journalism” and example of “CONTROL.”

  32. Ray Southwell

    Nikskyky,
    So- you refuse to discuss your beliefs concerning the Second Amendment. You would rather discuss Norm Olson. It would appear you also reject the First Amendment to the Constitution. Are you willing to take questions surrounding Free Speech?

    It would appear you fear Norm Olson’s speech.

    My Father grew up in Detroit during the “Great Depression.” In the early 1950’s he was a young parent. He told my mother he would do “whatever it took to feed his family.” I never found out what he meant by his statement. He had a great job in Detroit and we were always well-fed.

    You may fear Norm Olson’s speech. I fear the 44 million Americans on food stamps when their ability to feed their families is gone. We will see what I believe my father meant, when those food stamps purchasing power is destroyed by inflation.

    • Nikskyky

      Ray,

      One example of potentially better momentary self awareness I’ve seen you exhibit was this morning (or yesterday) in your question to the ACM group when you asked, “When does faith/courage change to foolishness?”

      Good question!

      From my perspective, here are some examples of foolishness in that thread:

      * The youtube clip exhibits numerous signs that should raise questions in your mind about credibility and veracity of the author’s interpretation of Murkowski speaking. It was foolishness on Bob Bird’s part to pass it on even considering his own suspicions about its veracity, and especially considering how its main purpose obviously would serve to amplify your peoples’ tendency toward confirmation bias.

      * It was foolishness that then Bob Bird would add his own interpretation of “Freudian slip,” thus taking really weak evidence and adding an even weaker interpretation.

      * It was more foolishness for Bob Bird to conclude, “Only God can say,” when, obviously, much more could be done by way of weighing or gathering evidence for the clip and Bird’s interpretation. That’s a classic “faith”-type thinking, error, btw, proposing an interpretation that confirms your biases, confirming the conclusion that already you want to believe, and precluding further consideration of objective evidence with a dog whistle to fellow members-in-faith.

      * It was more foolishness in the same vein when you passed Bob Bird’s email and youtube link on to the ACM group.

      * And in that group conversation, Elizabeth Daniels’ response was evidence of true-believer-without-a-rudder-type foolishness:

      We are all being called out one by one. We are being monitored in every undertaking. If not just via the vessels of evil which pursues Godliness, I pray I may hold courage when my turn is come and that I be prepared to speak that which The Holy Spirit may shed abroad my heart that I speak Words that be of God and not that of man. And after having done all, to stand and know that God is God and to stand! Stand thru the Fire Cox. Thy God is with thee!

      It would be more foolishness for a person of integrity to ignore these regularly repeated patterns of foolishness that basically distinguish thinking in your militia community: appeals to “faith,” confirmation bias, gullibility, and fear. Unfortunately, you and your Commander Pastor Olson haven’t simply been falling for it, you’ve been feeding it; you’ve been leading it. To the extent your behavior in this vein has not been accidental ignorance, it’s been immoral.

      • Nikskyky

        Darn. I wish these comments had a preview option. I missed the closing blockquote tag after the single paragraph of Elizabeth Daniel’s response, second-to-last paragraph above.

  33. analaskancitizen

    I just noticed that”fear” is a common denominator in much of R.S.’s writing. In my opinion, that speaks very loudly to a difference in how I believe and live my life. Just sayin’

  34. Ray Southwell

    Analaskancitizen,
    Fear is a natural human response to observed behavior. Note I said behavior, not speech.

    Police may use “deadly force” if they are in fear for their lives. Make sure when interacting with the police you cower down to them, especially the FBI. Unfortunately those friends of mine who are black cannot change the color of their skin enough to show submission in this police state.

  35. Ray Southwell

    Nikiskyky,
    Great, I am please you are reading the militia dialog. My quote was accurate from you. The discussion however was on the behavior of courage/faith and foolishness.

    You presented what you believe is inaccurate information and called it foolishness. Your opinion is accepted.

    You have opened up information from the militia site. Let me post my last couple of informational posts from the ACM site.

    Thanks for the opportunity.
    Ray

    David,
    I am not sure what the answer is. I think we must recognize the court system is corrupt and help get the public exposure. This can best be accomplished by going to court and be an observer of the courts behavior. Judges hate it when the public show an interest and are listening.

    On the Kenai Peninsula there is an individual named David Haeg who is standing against the corruption. Not militia, not from a patriot group. Just a man who got caught up in the corruption. He went through 3 attorneys and is doing it alone. He has no hope, if the public does not listen to what is happening in the court. Here is his web site-

    http://alaskastateofcorruption.com/

    Long explanation. I have not read what all the issues are. I show up at his hearings because I want the judge to know the public is listening.

    At one point the court locked him up into API for a psych evaluation because he dared to stand alone without an attorney. I thought that was going to happen to Schaeffer Cox. They had bigger plans for him.
    Ray

    David,
    In April of 2007 I was assaulted by Homeland Security at the Border crossing in New York.

    I went to the press, attorneys, ACLU and politicians. Only Lisa Murkowski’s office took an interest. After never hearing from her office again, I called. They said they would check with Homeland Security, who told them they did an investigation and the issue was closed. Homeland Security never spoke to me or my family members present at the time.

    If you stand for Liberty and Freedom you will be called names first, then assaulted and finally imprisoned as Scheffer Cox has been.

    Here is my written recollection of the incident, I wrote and posted on April 2,2007

    To family and friends,

    It has almost been a year since my heart attack and cardiac arrest. I have been pain free for most of the year until March 30,2007 when I was assaulted by homeland security.
    The incident:
    While traveling from Michigan to Maine, through Canada, we drove through Lewiston New York. My oldest son (his wife is serving in the persun gulf). With his two children and my wife in the first vehicle. Myself with my other son, his wife and their daughter in the minivan I was driving. We were all on vacation traveling to see my daughter and other four grandchildren in Maine. Traveling through Canada is the shortest distance from Michigan to Maine.
    We entered back into the US at Lewiston New York. My oldest son was leading and was questioned first. They allowed him through and he drove up and waited for us.
    We gave the officer our driver licenses and the birth certificate of my granddaughter. He apparently put the information in a computer and several minutes passed. He kept our documents and told us to pull forward and park and go inside the building for a random auto inspection. After locking the car we went inside and waited. After several more minutes I was called up to the counter. The officer wanted detailed information on why someone from Alaska was traveling in Canada from Michigan. I gave very detailed reasons why I was traveling. (one of my sons lives in Michigan.) He asked for the minivans keys, I gave them with my usual statement that I must be present when they go through the vehicle. He answered that it was fine but another officer would need to be present during the process. I sat down and waited with my son, his wife and their daughter. Several minutes later I was asked to come behind the desk. I thought they were leading me to another door to go inspect my rented car. They asked me to enter through a door, and I did so. I was in a concrete block room with solid concrete seat with large eyebolts sticking out. The only window was a small one in the door. My son and daughter-in-law were standing at the counter. The door was closed and the widow was shut off from viewing the inside. I believe two officers were with me. What happened next can only be described as an assault.
    I was told to turn and place my hands on the wall and spread my legs, I did so under protest. I was also told to put my forehead on the wall. I was going to be checked for weapons. (I had my leatherman, but I told the officer earlier that I had it.) The first thing they found was my cell phone, one officer took it and tossed it on a metal table. I heard it hit and turned my head to see what they had done with it. My head was slammed against the wall with a shout “don’t move; keep your head on the wall.” I started to protest with the way they were treating my property. My chest pain started. I wanted to get my nitroglycerine out of my pocket. They objected to my movement and my arms were twisted to my back, as more officers poured into the concrete room. One officer shouted lets cuff him. The door was left open and I heard “close that door!” The pain was up to 8/10. I couldn’t get my nitroglycerine. The last time I had chest pain like this I was having a heart attack with a cardiac arrest. At that time, my wife and friends surrounded me. This time, enemies surrounded me. The panic was overwhelming. Not because of dying, but because my family would not know what had happened. I started to shout “ I am a Heart Patient, I need my nitroglycerine in my left front pocket.” I was screaming this statement, over and over. It was my hope, that if I died, my family would know they had refused to allow me to be treated. I found out later that the room was sound proof. My son could tell I was screaming, but could not tell what I was saying. The officers hands continued to be all over me. Every square inch on my body was touched except my feet and face. As multiple hands felt the inside on my inner legs, the hands hit my genitals and was grabbed and squeezed. This was not an attempt to hurt me, but to intimidate me. Hands in my pocket taking all my property I had in them. My wallet with several hundred dollars was taken along with credit cards, keys, my nitroglycerine, all gone. Over and over, this “weapon search” continued with handcuffs on. I continued to scream what I needed, my nitroglycerine. My son was demanding to know what was happening. He attempted to inform, my wife in the other vehicle, what was going on. They refused to let him tell her. My daughter-in-law attempted and she was yelled at to get back into the building. One officer said they would call 911 if I wanted. I requested that help. It’s now 10-15 minutes since the pain started. When the ambulance arrived, my wife says she knew it was for me. She ran to the building to see what was happening. They refused to allow her to see me. With her presence one officer came in and gave me one of my nitroglycerines. Another officer said “cuff him to the bench.” (the eyebolt) An officer placed another set of cuffs into the eyebolt, but did not connect them to the set, I still had on, behind my back. The EMTs/Paramedics came into the room and my pain was decreasing. I was asking how long it had been since my nitroglycerine. The officers refused to tell me. He did tell the EMTs/Paramedics when they asked. It was given 3 minutes prior to them arriving into the concrete room. My heart rate was high; my blood pressure was sky high. I was having irregular heartbeats, (PVC’s) the same type of beats that caused my cardiac arrest a year earlier. But the pain was decreasing and I was feeling safer with help in the room. The handcuffs were tight and my hands were numb. I asked if I had been arrested. I was told no, but I was being detained. I asked if the handcuffs could be remover or loosened. I was told no and that handcuffs are uncomfortable. The red marks stayed for a day. I refused to be transported to the hospital. Any father and husband will understand why. The handcuffs were taken off so I could sign the refusal papers. They were never placed back on. I remained in the concrete cell for another hour or so. My shoes were taken, (shoe laces a concern for them) also my hooded sweatshirt. (hood tie a threat)
    The supervisor (I found out later) came in to lecture me. He told me that they were going to inspect the car without me, and they had the right to do so. I disagreed.
    He also told me they would keep me locked up until they were done. I said I wanted to leave. He said no. I again asked if I was arrested and he answered no, but I am being detained.
    My oldest son stayed with his two sons and truck with camper. He was parked in such a way he could see the inspection. Three officers inspected the minivan. A dog was used and an apparent X ray machine. Fortunately this rental vehicle, from Detroit, was clean.
    I must apologize to my family and friends, they took my appointment book
    With names and numbers inside, probably to copy. They also have my social security number, driver’s license number, and address and credit card numbers.

  36. “the only thing timothy did wrong was to get caught”
    the psychotic with support from the bedbug.

    women and children slaughtered….
    and the bedbug whines…..

  37. “Jefferson said over and over that the right of the people to keep arms for their own defense against tyranny, a tyrannical government, was necessary,”

    HE ALSO STATED:

    “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.”

    “The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government.”

    “…I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

    “All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution”

    “We the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge or affect their civil capacities …” (Thomas Jefferson, “Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom in Virginia,” 1779; those parts shown above in italics were, according to Edwin S. Gaustad, written by Jefferson but not included in the statute as passed by the General Assembly of Virginia. The bill became law on January 16, 1786. From Edwin S. Gaustad, ed., A Documentary History of Religion in America, Vol. I (To the Civil War), Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1982, pp. 259-261. Jefferson was prouder of having written this bill than of being the third President or of such history-making accomplishments as the Louisiana Purchase. He wrote, as his own full epitaph, “Here was buried Thomas Jefferson, Author of the Declaration of American Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom, And Father of the University of Virginia.”)

  38. Ray Southwell

    cpmondello,
    We agree on the much of the history of organized religion. I would encourage you to look at what Christ taught and did rather than organized religion.

    We agree on Jefferson. Perhaps we should look at what other areas we can agree on, how about Life, Liberty and Property?

    What confuses me is your statement-
    “White Conservative Christian Terrorist Groups Speak About The Importance Of Christianity In Their Movement” should be the title

    Makes me think you place all Christians in one evil group.

    Reminds me of Germany placing all Jews in one evil group, or all blacks in one evil group. (“there goes the neighborhood”)

    I bet you place all Muslims in one evil group.
    You are probably a great supporter of the Fatherland, ahhh Homeland.

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