‘Evil this way comes’ — Militia founders warn of need to grow local militia effort

Photo by Jenny Neyman, Redoubt Reporter. Ray Southwell, left, and Norm Olson, of Nikiski, dressed in uniform for an information meeting about the formation of an Alaska Militia on Friday at the Nikiski Recreation Center.

Photo by Jenny Neyman, Redoubt Reporter. Ray Southwell, left, and Norm Olson, of Nikiski, dressed in uniform for an information meeting about the formation of an Alaska Militia on Friday at the Nikiski Recreation Center.

By Jenny Neyman

Redoubt Reporter

Alaskans should be afraid, but not of the formation of a militia.

That was the message of Norm Olson, co-founder of the Michigan Militia, who moved to Nikiski about five years ago and now is attempting to recruit citizen soldiers to expand the fledgling Alaska Militia founded on the Kenai Peninsula. Olson and Michigan Militia co-founder Ray Southwell, who also now lives in Nikiski, headed an informational meeting Thursday night at the Nikiski Recreation Center to explain the history, purpose and function of the militia, and what they see as the pressing need for it today.

“We’re looking at catastrophe just a couple months away — economic collapse, food shortages around the world, prices in stores are gonna go skyrocketing with this inflation — so there are people right now that are very uneasy. They may not want to admit it, but they have no place to turn,” Olson said.

He laid out an array of increasing threats to Americans’ liberty, freedoms and way of life: The government encroaching on individuals’ rights and perpetrating psychological warfare — largely carried out through the media — to create fear and quell an informed public; and a national economy poised on the brink of ruin, which will drag commerce and social order down with it. A collapse could well result in the declaration of martial law and a further trampling of individuals’ rights, Olson said.

“I’m convinced that times are coming when we are going to have to repel federal aggression, tyrannical oppressive federal aggression. They’re going to want to quell any kind of uprising, because it’s bad for politics,” Olson said.

In a national economic crisis, chaos will ensue, beyond what the already-spread-too-thin Alaska State Troopers or National Guard, stationed overseas, could contain, Olson said.

“During that time there’s going to be marauding gangs. Nikiski is rife with criminality up here. I mean, I’ve never seen so many break-ins and so much crime up here. Small crime, but that’s only going to get worse as shortages come along. There’s going to be more and more crime. Well, how are we going to deal with that?” Olson said.

That’s where a trained, armed, well-regulated collective of local private citizens — an unorganized militia (the Armed Forces being an organized militia) — could come into service to provide order, he said.

“So, as a community, how are we going to survive? … Are we gonna hire mercenaries, or are we going to deal with the problem ourselves?” Olson said. “The militia can be like a grandiose neighborhood watch, when you think about it, helping each other.”

Olson and Southwell were motivated by similar concerns of government encroachment and abuse of power when they founded the Michigan Militia in 1993. At the time, Goals 2000 was on the horizon, which was an attempt at federal, standards-based education reform, often seen as a predecessor to the federal No Child Left Behind Act. And the bloody standoffs involving federal forces and the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas, in 1993 and the Weaver family in Idaho in 1992 were fresh in their minds.

“The education system was going to be taken over by the federal government. We were frightened of that. We were frightened by (then-President Bill) Clinton and (Attorney General Janet) Reno, and we were frightened of the Waco thing and the debacle there at Ruby Ridge when Randy Weaver was under fire. So the militia rose very dramatically, very quickly, spontaneously almost,” Olson said. “It was a natural emergence by people doing what was necessary when they’re frightened, you stand up and directly face what frightened you.”

Fear is a great motivator, Olson told the crowd of about 20. Attendees included people active in the Second Amendment Task Force meetings this spring, which culminated in an open carry firearms walk through Soldotna on April 28. The meeting also drew Schaeffer Cox, of Fairbanks, who ran for a state House seat in 2008 and began the Second Amendment Task Force in Fairbanks.

“Fear is a great thing, and it can motivate you, but it will also get you to run into the shadows,” Olson said.

At first, fear motivated people across Michigan, the U.S. and in five other countries to form militias, Olson said. But after the Oklahoma City Bombing, it motivated many in militia groups to go underground, he said.

Olson and Southwell resigned their command posts with the Michigan Militia in 1995 and the militia movement fizzled. He said that the decline of Michigan’s economy and politics led him, his wife, Mary, Southwell and others that had been part of the Michigan Militia to move to Nikiski in the mid-2000s. Olson owns a 20-acre parcel of land on Island Lake Road, serving as a base for their newly formed Alaska Militia, and also is a member of the Central Peninsula Hospital Service Area Board.

During the Bush administration, the need for a militia didn’t seem as great, Olson said. But current times have made the need more urgent. Too many people are taken in by rumors, cowed by fear or swayed by propaganda delivered by the controlled media, as Olson termed it, which seeks to advance the aims of government and discredit patriots who try to stand up against authority, he said.

“It is doubtful that the militia will ever be socially acceptable,” Olson said. “The central government and the controlled media will paint you as criminals, terrorists, extremists, radicals, anti-government, wing nuts. Are you willing to pay the price?”

He praised U.S. Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C., as an example of someone willing to stand up to authority. Wilson garnered national press attention by shouting at President Barack Obama during his Sept. 9 speech to Congress on health care reform.

“He said, ‘You’re a liar.’ He was willing to question the facts, bless his heart. I hope he runs for president. He had the guts to question the rumor,” Olson said.

In today’s world, like-minded individuals need to come forward, coordinate and be visible, Southwell said.

“Back in October, when the economic situation developed, Norm and I were quite concerned because we knew that there’s militias all over the place in Alaska and all over the country, and part of our fear is if you do not stand in the open and do not network with each other, you’re going to end up, I believe, in anarchy,” Southwell said.

The presentation was part political science lesson, part how-to guide and part motivational rally. Southwell was every bit the poly-sci professor, delivering a lesson on the history and lawful basis of militias, state and federal law regarding them, Supreme Court rulings and the interpretation that the Second Amendment recognizes, not grants, the pre-existing right to bear arms, all sprinkled with quotes from founding fathers.

Olson made full use of his background in the military and as a pastor in describing the purpose and function of a militia, delivered with the forceful conviction of a commander sending troops off on a mission, or a fiery preacher at the pulpit. Militia representatives wore full camouflage uniforms, with the coiled snake “Don’t tread on me” patch and an Alaska Militia insignia on their left arms. The presentation was peppered with patriotic lexicon and quotable turns of phrase.

“We’re not talking about hunting. It’s not about duck hunting, folks, it’s about protecting yourselves and your family and your property and our way of life and our liberty,” Olson said.

“You know you’re right. You know you got the right. You know your cause is right. So why not stand up and announce it?” he said.

There were moments of levity, as well, like when computer problems interrupted the PowerPoint presentation and prompted a comment from the crowd: “It’s a little more complicated than an M-16, huh?”

Olson said he was disappointed that more people didn’t come to the meeting, and that the culture of Alaskans has dampened the response to a local militia.

“They are mostly independent and self-reliant, which is a fatal flaw in times of hardship and difficulty. It’s nice to be independent and self-reliant, but it’s also important to realize there’s strength in numbers. If we had a larger community of people that had that solidarity and recognized the coming threat and were willing to join together — and call it a militia, call it a co-op, call it whatever you want,” Olson said.

He and Southwell plan to press on with growth of the Alaska Militia, encouraging people to hold meetings, elect leaders, organize command structures and initiate training in their areas, and network throughout the state.

Olson said he is not running in October’s municipal election to keep his seat on the hospital service area board, in order to avoid a conflict of interest.

“My venture into the militia may disturb people, if people feel that I’m armed and, of course, the way they paint us is that we’re unbalanced and right-wing extremists and I wouldn’t want that to jeopardize the work of the board,” he said. “The board needs to gain control right now. They don’t need to be in a panic about Norm Olson being on the board.”

He and Southwell are willing to travel throughout the state to give similar presentations on the militia.

“Because we’re trying to shout the alarm, shout the danger that something very evil this way comes,” Olson said. “Something very dangerous is coming and it’s not Mount Redoubt and it’s not the earthquakes. There’s something else that’s coming down the pike and we’ve got to prepare ourselves for it.”

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123 Comments

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123 responses to “‘Evil this way comes’ — Militia founders warn of need to grow local militia effort

  1. Alaskan

    Fools like Olson and Southwell would be the first eliminated should any catastrophe happen. After all, in times of crises who would want some self-righteous idiot like Olson and Southwell ordering people around? No, they’d be eliminated so real order could be restored by real police and military. Nuts like these two are not just cowards, they’re treasonous cowards. Yeah, you two better prepare: prepare to be the first run out of town and Alaska!!

    • joe

      I have lived here for over 40 years and can see that our politicians have been bought and paid for , looks like you will have to deal with 3 nut jobs

    • Minuteman1776

      I find so very amazing how all of the folk who find fault in what the Alaska Militia movement is working acheive, can only attempt to poke fun and haze what they are too fearful and ashamed to try and understand. These are the same people who cowered in their homes and holes when the the ads went out to give notice that this event was was taking place. There was no covert or secretive attempt to hide the event, that was open to the public. There was no KKK, skinheads, etc, save the Operations officer and training director, whose head is shaved! The men who had the courage to stand up and be counted, DID oppose the Bush patriot act and it’s effects of cancelling out the liberty that we ALL were and are guarenteed. I hope that the next time, you post at least have the courage to attend a seminar, meeting or whatever and have all the facts prior to opening that pretty mouth.

    • Gary Smith

      First, you gave no evidence that they are nuts other than your own assertion. I look at cities like Memphis TN; and I wonder how many other cities are governed by criminals. More than once I have reported crimes being committed in Memphis and received no response from the Police. On one occasion a man who worked for me reported a Restaurant owner beating his son, 5- 10-20-30 minutes go by and no response. I called the Police again and the reply was they had no cars near the area–I had witnessed more than 2 police cars drive right past us. I called the dispatcher and she said they had cars in other areas and could not respond. I replied that I could come check the records to see where they were and she hung the phone up on me. Oh, they finally came after I had made them fear some sort of action–maybe legal. By the time they came the son had to be taken by ambulance to the hospital. Later I found out the Restaurant owner who had beaten his kid was a faithful supporter of University of Memphis Basketball and they could not arrest him. then there is the case where more than 50% of the dept. was caught in trafficking drugs. They later got their jobs back though they were not found innocent.

      Now, I have more than a few facts about the government and t he police depts nationwide. I think Olsen and Southwell not nuts. But those who feel safe in the hands of criminal they are nuts. I guess you didn’t notice how the government handled Katrina. Government agents were shooting people who were trying to protect their own personal property. At this point under these circumstances I would say anyone who doesn’t join a militia will have little to no protection. I know the government is watching a lot of people. To their great misfortune everyone now has their number, their faces, and their crooked dealings are now out there for every American to see. This country is so unsafe that I wish I were somewhere else so that I could keep my family safe.

    • I don’t see Olsen or Southwell killing millions of innocent kids… I don’t see them drone striking innocent schools overseas all in the name of finding one “terrorist”, I don’t see Olsen or Southwell putting their hands in womens pants on the highway, I don’t see Olsen or Southwell putting their hands down kids pants at the airports… I don’t see Olsen or Southwell disarming LAW ABIDING AMERICAN CITIZENS. I SEE THEM BRINGING PEOPLE TOGETHER FOR A JUST AND RIGHT CAUSE. FREEDOM. If you don’t like freedom… well than may your chains be set lightly upon you, you’re a slave. People like you in crisis will kiss the boots of Hitler and those alike, instead of being surrounded by good God loving people. You’re an idiot sir, and one looney toon that deserves the natural consequences of your actions.

      • Lysander Spooner

        Just my opinion, but anyone who so easily and unreasonably evokes Hitler should probably refrain from calling someone else an idiot.

  2. Mah

    Olson said. “The central government and the controlled media will paint you as criminals, terrorists, extremists, radicals, anti-government, wing nuts.”

    Apparently there’s no need for anything or anyone else to make this case. Olson is doing just fine for himself in this department. Let’s hope he remains happy in his own little sandbox. He’ll be relatively harmless there.

    • Minuteman1776

      I would be inclined to belive that if anyone is happy in their little sand box, it would be you and anyone else who has no idea about how really serious the world situation is, especially as it pertains to Alaskans. I hope we all can at some point get our heads out of the sand. Freedom is NOT free.

      • Unknown.

        True but the price of liberty cannot be paid in $, Pounds, Euros or any other currency but only in blood of those that would be free!

  3. Can’t help but think of two things: Where were they during 8 years of Bush over-reaching federal authority; ie. Only clinton & Obama = a threat? And two, dialing Deliverance style banjos…

    • Minuteman1776

      The Militia has never gone away, it was continuing to blog and build alliances with other like minded folk who, can see more than what we have prepared for us and fed to us by those who are bought and paid for. I think that all of those who have already made up their minds, can remain on the same page as before and believe that all is well with the world and the government is going to handle things without my help nor input….please don’t wake me, I’m doing just fine.

      • Yeah, “Deep underground Militia” so “deep” that when the trouble starts they’ll use every excuse not to do anything. Later as the major fighting is done they will “appear” and tell you all about how they were behind you every step of the way (way behind ,way,way,way behind) Conventional, paraconventional and unconventional do and will have there place on the present and future battlefield. Without an integrated process the unconventional force will fail just as quickly. This is NOT the middle east. 48 states with every form of climate condition and terrain imaginable and all on the same land mass. Most of what is used there is limited or useless everywhere else. Desert warefere has been and is unique. It cannot be used as the litmus for any evaluation of operations inside the USA.
        Ne Copula Nobiscum. Libertytreeradio on youtube. MGK/GDW

  4. Ground forces are irrelevant in this battle field and dressing up and running though the woods is useless.

    I was looking at my old field manuals for infantry movement and realized how absurd they are in today’s warfare setting. You need to know unconventional warfare if you are in a militia, and these fine Budweiser drinking guys would have no idea what to do should the need arise.

    • Minuteman1776

      I’m glad that you have the foresight to keep your manuels handy. I’d not put too much worry into what those two guys and their troop can or will be able to do if a need should arise. I’d say you are one of those undercover underground militia types that they talked about at their seminar…..BRAVO! Keep up the good work!

  5. HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! The only “something very evil this way comes” is from themselves. When Bush rammed the Patriot Act down the throat of americans where were these clowns? Oh, right… they even stated there was no need for them at the time of Bush’s presidency.

    Gee, a black guy is now Prez; guess that means they need to spread the word about how bad the guvmit is!

    • Minuteman1776

      They were shouting to the heavens, they were crying FOUL! where were you? Oh, you were off drinking, smokin’ and jokin’ with your BFF’s and living the high life. I was reading what these guys had to say and learning about how to use my vote to act! I supported the second amendment taskforce, the Alaska independence party and anything else that had to do with doing my part to protect my and my family’s liberty. I get a real thrill out of the QUIET, SILENT majority, doing the best they can to take down anyone who walks the walk as well as talks the talk. I say to you! Stand up and be counted! Stop hiding!

  6. Wayne

    The “Evil” is already here..it IS the Michigan Militia.

    • Minuteman1776

      Another under informed person, who has failed to read or research, before passing a judgement.
      I have followed up on all of the stories written about the Michigan Militia and I’ve found no evil
      there as it relates to these two men…..WOW!
      I’m continually stunned, by all of this response from people who had not the courage to show up and hear what was said first hand. I read the article as it was written in this newspaper and see no way that this hostlility could stem from it, so where are these guys getting all of this? Oh, it must be the demonization, that was spoken of.

      • oogity boogity

        I googled nutjob and here’s what I found;

        From the very beginning, Norman E. Olson was a radical among radicals. After starting the Michigan Militia in April 1994 as one of the first major militia groups, Olson helped make his home state one of the leading spots for Patriot activity.

        He drew widespread attention after reporting Oklahoma City conspirator Terry Nichols had attended one of the meetings of the Michigan Militia, which he claimed counted 12,000 members.

        But Olson, a Baptist preacher who spends time in his Alanson gun store wearing a camouflage military outfit, alienated his colleagues after Oklahoma by offering reporters an incredible theory: The Japanese government had bombed the federal building there as a return favor for the sarin gas subway attack that he said the U.S. government carried out in Tokyo.

        Unceremoniously booted out by his comrades-in-arms, Olson started another group, the Northern Michigan Regional Militia, while attacking his former friends as “too moderate.” In the run-up to the millennial date change, Olson predicted government collapse and worse as a result of the “y2k” computer bug — a collapse he welcomed.

        “We’re itching for a standoff someplace,” he told The Washington Post in late 1999. “Any movement needs a good and noble rallying point, an Alamo or a ‘Remember the Maine,’ and this could be it.”

        Norm was kicked out out of the Michigan Militia for being too radical.

        Norm Olson mentored Tim McVeigh, who used to stay at Norm and Mary’s house.

        June 5, 1997 – Norman Olson, who leads the Northern Michigan Regional Militia, urged Tim McVeigh to demand to be executed. “Targeting noncombatants is wrong and cannot be condoned by honorable men,” Olson said,. “As a soldier, you must die for your war crime.”

        Olson, a Baptist minister, gun shop owner and co-founder of the Michigan Militia, made his appeal to McVeigh in a letter sent through McVeigh’s attorney, Stephen Jones. “Do the right thing now, Tim,” the letter states, “Die for Janet Reno’s sins for allowing Waco. Here is your chance to tell the world the true cause of your action. Let her forever live with that!”

        Norm Olson, the founder of the Michigan Militia who was investigated for their mentoring of Timothy McVeigh, now lives in Alaska and is on the Governors ballot in November under the Alaska Independent Party.

  7. Paco O'Reilly

    All the best men already enlisted with the Northern Brigade, as it has been since 1938.

    • Minuteman1776

      This State’s very own Constitution fully supports what these men are talking about. I’m gonna go with their idea, as it can NOT be federalized in an emergency, it (the unorganized militia) remains the line in the sand that the governor can activate
      as opposed to using federal troops or blackwater, like they did during hurricane katrina in new orleans. The organized militia is the national guard and the Alaska Self Defense Force.

  8. David J. Dominguez

    Every so often people like these guys show up and stink up the place like a fart in an elevator. I’ll be glad to see you all leave like the others. In the mean time don’t hurt anyone with your paranoid delusions.

    • Minuteman1776

      I would agree that there have been one kind of group or another spinging up and then running out of town or the state, after whipping up a fever of one kind or another. I’m not seeing that with these guys. I don’t forsee these guys going anywhere, I’d go a bit further, by saying that the the stink you speak of is eminating from your upper lip. I see people complaining but, not seeming to have any idea how to address the obvious concerns that I and other all seem apparently have. I beg of of you, if you have a solution please share it with the rest of the class.

  9. Charlie

    Could this group be behind all the break ins and stealing in the sterling area to promote fear , pushing the fear button

    • Minuteman1776

      I hope that whom ever is commiting those crimes over there is SHOT by a second amendment supporter and or brought to justice! I don’t know what fear button it is that you speak of, I do know that, even a blind man could see that something is amiss here in our area and fear has nothing to do with it. Ive read a lot about these two and there seems to be no referrence to any crimes or thefts attributed to their group, troops or the movement. I hope that if there’s a fear button and no one has pushed it yet, that they do take heed and get busy pushing it already. There is nothing to fear but, fear itself.

  10. Hire Intelligence

    Thank you for attending this bizzaro event. May their diseased thoughts not spread beyond their 20 acre compound. Dressing up as soldier boys was fun at the age of four.

    • Minuteman1776

      You obviously were not in attendance, and training is in full swing, we dress as soldiers because unlike you, we have all read the bill of rights and the constitutions of Alaska and the United States.
      Every Citizen IS a Soldier, it’s that serious! I want you, to remain in your comfort zone. I’ll leave the readiness of our community to the people who seem to have a clue and who show they care and
      we’ll leave the hard drinking, hard partying, hard smoking, video gaming and junk food eatting to you and yours.

  11. jose

    Nowadays is very important to form a militias to defend our country in case we are attacked, but unfortunately criminals as KKK have infiltrated these militias to commit crimes or promote hate against minorities, we see what is going on with president Obama, racist groups are attending TEE BAG PARTIES, armed with all kind of weapons, to intimidate our president and his followers, U.S.A. is not the same as 30 or 40 years ago, our country is diverse with a well distributed population all over the country, insted of promoting hate we should work together to rebuild this nation left in pieces by the George Bush administration.

    • Minuteman1776

      Very well said. I doubt there are any people who would stupid enough to be a part of the militia and any of those racist groups. I am joining these guys and hope you do too. I think that someone who thinks as clearly as you, are just the type of guy we need in the militia. Hope to see you at the next meeting.

  12. jose

    I think our authorities shoud check the background of these individuals, KKK is unwelcome in Alaska.

  13. Norm Olson

    F.Y.I.

    Black Militia Created in Detroit
    Abstracted from the Times-Picayune, January 28, 1996.

    Michigan, home of the Michigan Militia and Mark Koernke’s more shadowy militia group, now has Clifford Brookins’ Detroit Constitutional Militia to worry about. But Brookins’ group, unlike the others, consists substantially of African-Americans. Moreover, it eschews paramilitary training in favor of political action. But much of the rhetoric, including the notion that the United States is being sold out to a socialist world government, is the same. Brookins, a building contractor, admits there may be some racism in the neo-militia movement, but says, “if all they know is what they see about black people in the media, how can they help it? Once we sit down at the table, we’ll work it out.” Brookins appears to have had help in creating the militia by Ray Southwell and Norman Olson, the former cofounders of the Michigan Militia who were kicked out after their less-than-praiseworthy performance under media fire in the wake of the Oklahoma City bombing. Southwell, a nurse who works part-time in Detroit, even stays overnight at Brookins’ house when in the city.

  14. Norm Olson

    After disclosing that Ray Southwell and I were guest of the Black Panthers and the Marcus Garvey movement in Detroit, the blacklash ceased.
    In the early days, the Black Panthers were a militia. Sadly they were infiltrated by bad elements that dissipated the group. But Ray and I were able to sit down and break bread with even the most hostile of the Marxist Black Panthers simply because we had some “common elements of unity” which I write about often when it comes to dealing with groups that SEEM on the opposite ends of the poles from what we (Ray and I, and Minuteman1776) hold dear. I urge all those who write to investigate for themselves using Scroogle.com or Google.com to read about us.
    Simply enter Norm Olson Militia or Ray Southwell Militia. You’ll have the dope….

    Also, if you go to youtube.com you can review my testimony before the US Senate…

    Don’t be a dunce or portray yourself as an uneducated dope! Get the facts. Read some real history BEFORE the revisionists change it. Find out about the threats that are coming our way. Ask yourself if you will trust the Federal Government or Blackwater mercenaries, hired by the Government of Alaska, to do the best by you.

    THINK THINK THINK THINK…

    What’s wrong out there????? Have you all lost your sensibilities.

    For further information and some enlightening essays, email me at normandmary@alaska.net

    Ask for “Questions People Often Ask” and

    “The Militia, From Where I stand.”

    If you’re not interested or frightened enough yet, then please don’t waste our time.

    • Minuteman1776

      WOW! I can not believe how quiet the mean spirited people are in this forum at this moment. Mr. Olson, I thank you and all the others, for all of the information that you all seem so glad to share with folks like me who thirst to know more about the Constitution and the people’s UNALIENABLE rights. There is no way, that anyone could read what you and others have written and hear what has been stated at public meetings and forums and still think these awful things that I have read here. I take pride in the fact that, there are still a chosen few who “get it” and I thank them too, as well as you and the Militia’s many and diverse supporters.

  15. Lysander Spooner

    Hilarious. If you so much as questioned anything the last administration did you were branded “un-American” or “unpatriotic.” Now, questioning, and even defying, the present administration is the ultimate act of patriotism. These people must think we’re all idiots to not see through the hypocrisy, self-interest and racism inherent in their overblown paranoia.

    • Minuteman1776

      Don’t be so quick to lump all of those people you speak of, into one pot! There are dozens of people within this forum, including me, who are and were always opposed to the Bush administration and the awesome hatchet job they did to our rights! I don’t care if the idiots you must be referring to are Black idiots or White idiots! Stealing our rights and liberty is wrong, regardless of who does it! I only see a few people like you, hiding on the internet, whining about the masses who are standing up and declaring, that “We the People” are not going to take this type of tyranny lying down! Name calling is great, if that’s all you have…..I’ll be a “racist, hypocrite, self interested and paranoid type”, if you think it’ll help me wake a few more of my countrymen up to the fact, that we’re in hurt locker here, especially if we are like you and fail to get a clue! Read up on the world and not just on the web and there just may be a ray of hope for this country.

  16. Mike Coons

    There are three “organized militia’s” under Alaska Statute, the Alaska National Guard, the Alaska Naval Militia and the Alaska State Defense Force. The Alaska State Defense Force is a cadre unit who will be expanded if a situation arises, i.e. major disaster or attack from the unorganized militia, we the people of Alaska. The Alaska State Defense Force is the “well regulated militia” of the 2nd Amendment and has a direct line of control, Governor to Commissioner of the Department of Military and Veterns Affairs to the Commander of the Alaska State Defense Force, 49th Civil Affairs with the subordinate Battalions and Commands (Coastal Command).

    Sadly, we aren’t well know, but we do have a force of between 250 to 350 for the entire state. Our missions are clear and we are a volunteer organization with our own gear, in accordance with State regulations, i.e uniforms, military accepted calibers such as .223 cal, .308 cal for rifles, 9mm or .45 cal for pistol.

    We are and have been the militia, well before the Michigan Militia was thought of. Our history goes back to WWII, when we were called tha Alaska Territorial Guard.

    If people want to do something constructive, look at us and join. We are at http://www.ak-prepared.com/asdf/ Check us out for a real alternative!

    • Michigander Defense Force

      Hooah brother! I am in the Michigan Volunteer Defense Force, the official “Michigan militia” of the State of Michigan. We are our state’s version of your Alaska State Defense Force – we hear many good things about you guys.

      Sorry to see that those who started the crazy “Michigan Militia” here have fled to your land and are now spreading their lies there as well.

      PATRIOTS: If you are unhappy with the current policitical system – do something about. I don’t mean armed revolution; you types would be crushed in a NY minute by the REAL Federal and State military forces. VOTE for change. If you want to serve your communties, join the Civil Air Patrol, the State Defense Force, the Coast Guard Aux., CERT team or Sheriff’s Posse.

      Forming your own private armies with NO authoritiy and NO accountability and NO chain of command is NOT the way to go. This what they do in Africa and South America.

      NO to private fake militia groups… YES to TRUE Patriotic Americans in the armed forces and military reserves of the several states!

  17. Cody Kniceley

    I’m 26 years of age, a veteran and a life long Alaskan. I’ve read the article set forth in The Redoubt Reporter, and I’ve read all of your comments on this page here… All I can see is a bunch of people throwing around grade school level insults without the use of the word “poop.” Although one of you did use the word “fart” which was replied to with an “upper lip” comment… Seriously folks. I’m 26 and even I find this juvenile.
    I’d like to now address the issue of racism that seems to pop up within a lot of your comments. During the Bush administration, trying to start a militia probably would have brought black ops down on their heads so fast that no one would have ever even noticed. Now, with Obama in the White House, maybe they can start this militia without that self-same fear.
    Good points were made to support the forming of this militia. There will be a day of reckoning, the government will continue to get bigger and bigger and eventually eat us all. I think that the protection of our rights is important, and so should ALL of you. Regardless of your political ideals.

  18. Norm Olson

    Mr. Coons very clearly shows the problem with NOT understanding
    the difference between the organized and the unorganized militia.
    The Alaska State Defense Force is “well regulated” but it is not
    unorganized. It is organized into the matrix of federal, state, and
    civil authorities and although low on the chain of command with respect to
    the Federal Government, it is still part of the government. In the same way
    that Alaska’s National Guard can be federalized, the Alaska State Defense
    Force can be given in service to the Federal Government with the Governor’s
    approval. Since our Governor makes no effort to keep sovereign control
    over the National Guard, why do you think he will not sacrifice the ASDF?
    That being the case, one must ask “what is the militia spoken of in the
    2nd Amendment? It can’t be the army, or the navy, or national guard
    since they grew out of statute and laws crafted by the early congress bodies.
    Was there a citizen’s militia that was totally apart from the federal or state
    government back in the 1760s-1770s? How about before that?
    With regard to “well-regulated”, the term has nothing at all to do with
    their organization link to a higher government body. The words “well-regulated”
    are defined as “well-disciplined and trained.” What everyone needs to
    do is to study to find the definition of Organized and Unorganized.
    The citizen soldier is the 4th branch of government able to resist against
    the Executive Branch or if necessary all three other branches of government if
    they conspire to take away our liberties.
    The ASDF is not autonomous. It is not independent of the Governor’s control.
    It is a great idea and I’m sure a great group of folks with considerable talent,
    but who shall defend WE THE PEOPLE if the Federal Government orders
    or compels the State Government to extend it’s unConstitional laws to
    ordinary Alaskans?
    Mr. Coons, will you obey the Governor if he orders your group to disarm
    ordinary citizens in this state. If they resist giving up their arms, would you
    shoot? Who do you consider to be the greatest threat to your liberty and
    to the Constitution?

    Norm Olson

  19. Norm Olson

    Mr. Coons said he would defend, “. . .against an attack from the unorganized militia. . .”
    Mr. Coons comment (see below) shows a great misunderstanding of what
    the militia of the 2nd Amendment is.
    Mr. Coons, the territory of Alaska was purchased in 1867, about 80 years
    AFTER the ratification of the United States Constitution. Question:
    Was there a unorganized militia in Alaska before 1867? For that matter,
    were there unorganized militia groups in the colonies before 1788 when
    the US Constitution was ratified?
    Just WHEN did the unorganized militia mentioned in the 2nd Amendment
    come into being? If you say that it came into being when the Bill of Rights
    became part of the US Constitution, then you must believe that the US Constitution
    gave the people the right to have one, yet the US Constitution was never
    intended to grant rights to the people, but rather to limit and specify the
    power of the Federal Government.
    One the other hand, if you say that the citizens militia existed long before
    the Constitution was ratified, then you’ll have to admit that it was the
    citizens militia that fought for our independence of England. So, were
    to revolutionary soldiers illegal to raise up arms against their lawful, legal,
    and legitimate ruler?

    The Bill of Rights are those given by God. Certainly they reflect
    clearly TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT which would soon come into
    existence, that they are God-given and not given by the government.

    I invite you to go to:
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2879144859921862896&hl=en#docid=-9043102260805967440

    Start at about 10 minutes into the video (use the slider arrow on the
    screen). These are the US Senate hearings into the militia. Listen to these men speak.

    Norm Olson

  20. Mike Coons

    To Mr Olson:

    In answer to your question as to will I or any member of the ASDF take up arms against Alaskans, much less Americans. There is no question, I and anybody in the State Militia, or Federal Armed Forces would not follow such an unlawful order. Under the UCMJ, BTW I did serve this nation for 20 years so I know what I am about to say, we are obligated to disobey an unlawful and un-Constititutional order, period! For any order to violate the Constitution is and would be an unlawful order.

    Now as to your other comments. I said in my comments at the very start that we are part of the organized militia. No bones about that and sir, I do know the difference between unorganized, the private citizen, and the ASDF, Naval Militia and yes even the Alaska National Guard as the organized. Now, you make the comment that the National Guard is Federalized, yes sir, that is right and they can and have been called up by the Presidents in the past. However, you sir, do not know Alaska law and that we, the ASDF cannot be called up outside of the Governor, even if we had a weak Governor. Alaska Constitution does not allow for a federalization of the ASDF or Naval Militia.

    I see part of the problem in your comments, specifically you second post of Mr. Coons said he would defend, “. . .against an attack from the unorganized militia. . .” Forgot a comma and sentence structure was not as complete as it should have been. Let me make that sentence clear. The Alaska State Defense Force is a cadre unit who will be expanded if a situation arises, i.e. major disaster or attack, by the Govunorganized militia, we the people of Alaska. I hope this clear up the previous sentence.

    Now, as to the history of our nation and the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights, specifically, the 1st, and 2nd are God Given Rights that were not “given” by the framers, but are rights that were recogonized by the Framers as God Given. For the 2nd Amendment is the protector of the 1st, without the two, the rest of the Bill of Rights could not have the meaning they do.

    The militia sir, was well before the Revolutionary War, as any person who learned history prior to the advent of the NEA and Political Correctness knows. In fact, I would propose that many of the militias were well regulated by their leaders in every town and hamlet or in the area where people were. Some militias were well led and trained while others were not as was shown in many battles that the militia could not withstand the attacks by the Red Coats.a

    The bottom line sir is that the unorganized militia that you advocate is just that, unorganized. I would invite you and others who read this to come talk to us, find out how and who we are. I can assure you that we are Patriots of the highest order and here to protect our State and Peoples from all enemies, foriegn and domestic.

  21. Mike Coons

    Don’t know what happened, but try again on this sentence.

    The Alaska State Defense Force is a cadre unit who will be expanded if a situation arises, i.e. major disaster or attack, by the Govenor. This means the unorganized militia, which is the private citizens of this state who will fill in the need of numbers needed to fulfill the mission.

  22. Norm Olson

    Mr. Coons,
    Thank you for your clarification. That earlier statement gave me pause. While I understand fully the responsibility of organized militia members to respond if tasked by the higher authority, be it local (possee), state (national guard, ASDF), or federal (national guard, and US Militiary) I do ask that you consider the citizen soldier who stands apart from all government authority. The great fear of the Founders was that the government they risked creating may become tyrannical and would come against the people. For that reason, they wrote the 2nd Amendment which declares that keeping and bearing arms is an inalienable right (given by God, and unable to be sold or transferred). It is the citizen soldier who can against a tyrannical government. It was for this reason that I questioned whether you, as an Alaskan, and as an American, would take up arms to supress, disarm, or subjugate your fellow Americans if they feel it necessary to “alter or abolish” government (See The Declaration of Independence).
    One might also ponder the number of abuses that will show that our government leaders are disposed to placing all of us under it’s depotism.

    I regret that your recent post distorted your true meaning.

    Norm Olson

  23. Mike Coons

    Thank you.

    Now, for a clarification. If a amajor disaster were to happen, say another 1964 style earthquake, what will happen with you and your group when the Governor calls you up?

    As to the abuses of government, I’m listening to one right now, Senator Begich! This federal government we have now is the worse and most fearsome in my life time. I’m 57 and know that unless We the People don’t take back our country this nation is doomed!

  24. Norm Olson

    I would invite all members of the ASDF to attend one of our seminars on the historical, legal, and lawful right of the Unorganized militia as named in the 2nd amendment to exist. The 2nd Amendment speaks ONLY about a citizen’s unorganized militia. It does not speak about an organized militia that is part of a state defense force. If it did it would say so. We cover this in depth at our education seminars.
    The 2nd Amendment states: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” You will notice that it speaks to the PEOPLE’S right to keep and bear arms, not to the individual state’s rights to have their own militia. The Founders were exceedingly clear in their intent.
    I would invite all readers to review http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller a Supreme Court case settled in 2008 wherein the Court held that the 2nd Amendment speaks about the “citizen soldier” and NOT the state defense force, the national guard, or the US Militiary.

    Hit the books folks!!

    Norm Olson, USAF Retired
    Student and Teacher of US History

  25. Norm Olson

    Most excellent question. Since we are “well-regulated” (that is, trained and disciplined) we will offer our services to the governor or whatever authority exists to serve in restoring peace and order. If the state government is obliterated, we would offer our services to the sheriff, but since Alaska has never seen fit to set up a geopolitical system to include sheriff’s, that option would be a mute point. In that case, we would use our extensive networking system to establish peace, safety, and order by whatever means we have available.

    The ASDF relies upon the State Government to task it and to give it direction, and presumeably to provide the necessary material support to make it work. But what if there is no government? What if the Federals tell Alaska to “round up the domestic terrorists who criticize Obama.” Do you think for a minute that all the Federal gifts and bail outs and federal laws over Alaska and Alaskans come without strings attached? How much of Alaska is owned by the Federal Government? How many Federal Laws must Alaskans abide to in areas of Hunting, Mining, Timber harvesting, Fish harvesting, etc. What about the 100-mile Constitution Free Zone that puts more than half of all Alaskans under Federal Law without so much as the protections of the US Constitution?

    Don’t believe me, at your own peril.

    The citizen soldier is extremely necessary to stand as the final line in the sand against federal or state tyranny. And don’t say it can never happen… History is too good a teacher to tell us it has and will.

    Norm Olson, USAF Retired

  26. Mike Coons

    Yes, the 2nd Amendment is about the PEOPLE! Yes, I agree, that the 2nd Amendment doesn’t speak to State Defense Forces, run by the States. That said, the purpose of the State Defense Forces is to help direct and focus the PEOPLE who are the Militia in the event of a need, be it disaster, outside attack (terrorism).

    You stated “You will notice that it speaks to the PEOPLE’S right to keep and bear arms, not to the individual state’s rights to have their own militia.” I disagree in principle. In order for a ““A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State” is so interrelated to the PEOPLE, the security of a free State cannot be upheld without the PEOPLE having the right to keep and bear arms.

    Bottom line is that we are standing for the same thing, our God Given Right to defend ourselves. Our approaches are different.

  27. Mike Coons

    This me talking, not as a member of the ASDF. When it comes down to your question, the thing I love about Alaska is that there are three ways in for the Feds to try and enforce something and one way out, in a body bag!

    What you may not know is that we are the most armed and most willing people in all of the States to stand against a tyrant like the one who wants to be just that! Plus our geographical location gives us an up to those in the Lower 48.

    Last but not least for our State Government to be dissolved would have to be something that would be a total choas world-wide.

    Well, just about done here for today. I’ve been writing you as I listened to the Townhall Meeting and ready to call this quits for today.

  28. Mike Coons

    Mr Olson last thing to say. There is a old bumper sticker we have. “I don’t care how you did it in the Lower 48, this is ALASKA!”

    I don’t know how long you have been here, not long I think. You need to understand Alaskans because we sure as hell are not like any Lower 48er! Suggest you listen more of Alaskans.

    Night.

    Mike Coons, TSgt USAF Retired.

  29. Maggie Balderdash

    Mr. Olson:

    Mike Coons does not speak for the ASDF and neither do I. Only the Comander has that right. A point of interest. According to the Alaska Homeland Security Report, the ASDF is listed as the primary institution charged with the protection of Alaska infrastructure. There is no way the ASDF would disarm Alaska citizens other than if they were to attack Alaska infrastructure and ASDF had been activated by the Governor.

  30. Norm Olson

    Hats off to my fellow retiree. I’ve been here just 5 years. But regardless of where you go in the Union, the basic rules and the history of the United States doesn’t change.

    Hit the books, Sarge.

    Norm Olson, MSgt USAF
    Retired.

  31. Norm Olson

    I know that Alaskans are made of stiffer stuff than the people I left behind. That’s why I came to this Great Land. Your comments about the feds leaving in a body bag make my heart go pitter patter. Good man, Sergeant Coons!!

    Norm Olson, fellow Retiree

  32. Norm Olson

    “. . .a free state. . .” an interesting phrase indeed. I would ask you “what is the most basic free state that you can imagine?”
    I alone am a free state. If I thought that the only way I could be free is to be identified with an incorporated entity called a STATE (e.g. New York, Alaska, Michigan, et al.) I would have to conclude that without such an incorporated State (capital S) I would not be free.
    That, my friend is foolishness. Even if the “State of Alaska” ceased to be, I would still be free and still have the inalienable right to keep and bear arms and to speak, assemble, and publish freely (along with the other rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights). In other words, Alaska does not grant me the rights I have from God.
    Governments are formed to protect the rights of the governed. That is their sole responsibility. My right as a free state to pursue Life, Liberty, and Happiness, are not to be hindered by any human government.

    Norm Olson

  33. Mike Coons

    Glad you like my take on Fed interference! :)

    As to the State, yes, I agree, each of us are our own State, although within the 2nd Amendment, there is a difference in meaning between the “State” and “People”. I agree that even if a tryant government were to “take away our rights” they never could, nor can, since our rights are inalienable and can never be taken.

    Also, agree, that our form of government was intented to protect our rights to Life, Liberty, and pursuit of Happiness. Sadly, that is not the case today. For too long we have been more concerned with a right that doesn’t exist, that Happiness is to be given by the government and no pursuit of that Happiness is required of the individual. Thus in doing that we now have the Welfare State, the Give ME State and the worse of all the PC State (read LIE)!

    Now the question is, what will happen in the next year? Will We the People allow Obama to take our nation and make it in his image or will We the People stand up like we have been doing and vote in numbers that we haven’t voted in, in centuries and defeat him? More importantly, will we have men and women of character, of conservative values and whom will fight for the Constitution as written to run against the anti-Constitution liberals in Congress, both Democrat and Republican? Then if that happens and we throw out the traitors to the Constitution and our nation as founded by our framers, will they stay that way or become corrupted by the Washington D.C. power? We the People have to start holding these people we hired to what we hired them for! For when they don’t do what we tell them to, then we have to FIRE them!

    Bottom line is, will 2010 be a revolution of the ballot box or will we have to do what Jefferson said, shed some blood to cleanse the tree of Liberty? I truly hope that we can take back our nation by the peaceful means, however, since I took the oath so many times to protect and defend this nation against ALL enemies foriegn and DOMESTIC, I will do what is needed to keep our nation free!

    • Lysander Spooner

      Probably too late in the game to get a response, but I can’t help wondering just who we are supposed to be “taking back our nation” from? As far as I can tell, it’s still intact.

  34. bubba

    aint yall on the same side

  35. Mike Coons

    Minuteman1776. I am sooooo tired of the attacks on President Bush! Yes, he screwed up and yes he didn’t go far enough in standing up to Congress on so many issues. Bottom line is that the terrorist haven’t hit us since then. I’m not making any bets with Obama though!

    “I only see a few people like you, hiding on the internet, whining about the masses who are standing up and declaring, that “We the People” are not going to take this type of tyranny lying down!” Whining? I’m one of the massses standing up to the Annoted One, Prince Harry and Princess Poloski! I would have dearly loved to be at the march/gathering in D.C! Those people, the 2 million plus took the time to stand up and be counted, not to mention the many millions more who had TEA Parties across the nation on the same day.

    Hiding on the internet? I am fighting this oppressive government in all means possible. I don’t know about you, but I am very politically active and stand for my rights and not afraid to say what is on my mind, i.e. Lisa Murkowski’s Town Hall in Wasilla.

    So sir, I don’t quite know what to make of you but your comments are out of line. So all I can say if for you to get a life.

    • Minuteman1776

      First off, thank you for your political activism. I would dare say that I’d hardly be the person to be hard on former president Bush for his rape of the Constitution, I voted for him both times and just like his father before him I’ve had the pleasure of meeting him too. I don’t just walk the walk friend, I live by the Oath I swore and I take it very seriuosly, as I’m sure you do. I wish no ill will between two civilized men such as you and I. I see the error in what we all know all too well as “infighting”. I have the most wonderful life that you could hope for from a patriot such as myself, I move quietly about the state, training, men such as yourself, who are just as mad as I am and want to offer more than lip service if the ASDF, needs or requires our support. I hope that you realize, I want the same things as you do. I want to live free in the greatest country on earth and I know this because, I lived and worked in the rest of them and this is it! I care not about the money, I do this for the love of country. I just had some of your ASDF brothers attend some of my formal traing and learned some really surprising fact about where some of our countrymen’s loyalies lie. I can tell by your passion, I would be honored to stand with you, should the need arise but, like you I pray daily that the peace I pray for last.

  36. Mike Coons

    Maggie, agreed and I am speaking for myself. However, I am trying to educate about the ASDF as well.

    Maybe this might spark an interest in the ASDF. We sure could use the interest and more people who are willing to commit.

  37. Norm Olson

    Please go to:
    http://docsouth.unc.edu/southlit/wirt/wirt.html

    On the webpage will be a book written 150 years ago. Scroll down to page 278 and 279 and read the debate between Patrick Henry and Mr. Pendleton.

    You see, it was during a time when Patrick Henry and others did not trust their own government. Pendleton argued that the political process could be used to recall tyrants. Patrick Henry said essentially, “we must have arms” if the political process doesn’t work.

    This is the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment. It is a warning to the federal government and all other governments that the people retain the means to abolish or overthrow a tyrannical government.

    The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with the organized militias (Army, Navy, National Guard, Home Guard, etc.) that are grafted into the government matrix.

    There must remain an independent, unorganized, citizen militia as a last line of defense against tyranny. For this reason I asked “Would you, as a member of the ASDF, if ordered by the Governor and backed by the Legislature, and upheld by the Alaska Supreme Court, disarm ordinary Alaska citizens whose only crime is that they believe the 2nd Amendment applies to them?”

    And if the people of Alaska refused to give up their arms, would you fire on them.

    Norm Olson

  38. Norm Olson

    Maggie:

    Two comments in your posting concern me. First, “Mike Coons does not speak for the ASDF and neither do I. Only the Comander has that right.” Does this mean that members cannot question what is being done? That they have no right to object? That they should not make comments about the ASDF?
    In the citizens militia, everything we do is for conscience sake. The oath we take is preambled by what is expected of the militia member and the final statement is “for conscience sake, so help me God.”
    We are not going to blindly follow a leader who has been appointed over us. We elect our officers based on their experience, wisdom, courage, and sound judgment. Do the members of the ASDF elect its officers or are they appointed and commissioned by the Governor? You see, there IS a difference.
    The second comment you make concerns an attack on Alaska infrastructure. You should rightly and boldly assert that you (as a member of the ASDF) will stop any attack on our Great State.
    Now for the difficult question: “Would you be so bold as to stop a FEDERAL attack on Alaskas infrastructure?”
    According to Executive Order 12919, the federal government has created a soviet-like system of federal/state organizations (see Homeland Security’s Web Site and read about “Fusion Centers.”) to oversee the protection of the federal infrastructure which includes Alaska. So, if the federal government decided to shut down power, fuel, communication, and set up road blocks to protect infrastructure during a civil unrest condition, would you try to stop it?
    Actually, the federal government is already attacking Alaska’s infrastructure!!! Do you know about the 100-mile Constitution Free Zone that more than 50-percent of Alaskans live in? What do you suppose that is? When you are stopped on an Alaskan highway at a federal roadblock, aren’t you really yielding to an attack on Alaska’s infrastructure?
    And if you are tasked by the Governor, who in turn is tasked by the Federal Government to put down any civil unrest or peaceful protest, will you comply?
    A house divided cannot stand.

    Norm Olson

  39. Norm Olson

    bubba: You asked “ain’t yall on the same side?”

    Thankfully, YES we are. The ASDF is part of the organized militia and the Citizen’s Militia comprises the Unorganized Militia. There is no disput between the two nor is there rivalry. We should and would be glad to stand alongside the ASDF to stop a federal attack against us.
    The big question is what happens if and when the government of Alaska is bought off by the federal government and compelled to disarm the citizen soldier? Read the Supreme Court findings under District of Columbia v. Heller 2008.
    Then get into our American history and see why the Founding Fathers feared a standing army inside the borders of our Country.
    Then read about the “Oath Keepers” (a group of 10s of thousands of militia and law enforcement who will not yield to the federal government if it attempts to violate the Constitution).

    Norm Olson

  40. Norm Olson

    Gentlemen, gentlemen, please avoid ad hominem attacks. We are all “hiding on the internet” in a sense. Not only is it fast and convenient, but we can maintain our anonymity. We all have our own reason for using the internet. But sometimes it tends to “de-humanize” us–as if we are merely black typed letters on a white comment board.
    We are real people and we must press for understanding by endorsing what I call “Unifying Principles.”
    I would hope that we could all read Patrick Henry’s great “Give Me Liberty” speech and say “here, here.” !!!!
    Let’s pull together and not apart.

    Norm Olson

  41. Mike Coons

    “The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with the organized militias (Army, Navy, National Guard, Home Guard, etc.) that are grafted into the government matrix.”

    Agreed and a point of contention with anti-gunners for a long, long time! As the Federal Judge in Texas stated in his review of the 2nd Amendment in the case of the Doctor, darn it, his name escapes me, that the first part of the 2nd is the prepartory phrase and that the “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” is the body of the sentence and the main focal point. In point of fact the right of the people to keep and bear arms supports the well regulated milita.

    “There must remain an independent, unorganized, citizen militia as a last line of defense against tyranny. For this reason I asked “Would you, as a member of the ASDF, if ordered by the Governor and backed by the Legislature, and upheld by the Alaska Supreme Court, disarm ordinary Alaska citizens whose only crime is that they believe the 2nd Amendment applies to them?”

    And if the people of Alaska refused to give up their arms, would you fire on them.”

    OK, I know this is a major concern of yours, hell anyone who wants to uphold our freedoms has concerns. So let me answer this in a different way. Let’s say our entire government goes to hell in a hand basket and the Governor calls us up. Since the ASDF is a cadre unit, around 250-350 people, the Governor would have to call up the citizens, the un-organized militia to make a full force. Now, if after that happened, the order is to disarm the citizens, would those same citizens who were just called up, who brought their own firearms, would they then disarm the rest of the population? I seriously doubt it, since the average armed citizen, now a viable part of the militia would then know that if they did disarm the population, then they would be next to turn in their arms. Then factor in the National Guard, which in this situation most likely would be under State control, since they would be in the State. Sure, the Federal Government, again worse case senerio, may have Federalized them, but being that they are in the state they would be under the control of whom, the Active duty military or the Governor? Those same citizen soldiers would most likely disobey an unlawful and unConstitutional order as per the UCMJ.

    So, the safeguards are in place to keep the government from getting that far. I hope this helps. Again, I am not speaking for anyone but myself here, just using the knowledge of the potentials and existing way of how this would work.

    As bad as things are today and with the fear of what this present Congress and President could do if left unchecked, this fear that it could go as far as you are postulating is not all that viable, in my opinion. Again, the Constitution forbids this, and enough people are educated in that Constitution, it’s meanings and are willing to stand up to anyone who would violate our God Given Rights.

  42. bubba

    you fellas seem ok how much do yall pay i need a job from been laid off. i aint never been in no army but i can shoot good got me a moose on day 1. do i have to go to a boot camp.

  43. Mike Coons

    No bubba, we don’t get paid unless called up. Then it is about $250-$300 a day. Academy training is one weekend a month for about 6 months. At the end of that you are tested for then if passing given a Constable rating. This way if we get out in areas needing law enforcement, we can fulfill that need.

  44. bubba

    mr coons how about them other fellas do they pay

  45. Ray Southwell

    To All,
    I have followed you dialog with Norm Olson and others. All agree the people need to be well armed. Our founders realized, from history, that all governments disintegrate to complete despotism without the people’s threat of force. They wanted and all agreed they would codify “a pre-existing right.” We have the second amendment.

    I recently read a book on the Bill of Rights by an alleged law scholar. He believes the second amendment is dead. He does not see the unorganized militia as well regulated. What he does not accept, is the historical truth, when the people do not feel the threat; the militia guns are put away and the Unorganized Militia goes fishing. Whenever the people feel a threat from government, the people rise up and become a force to be dealt with. With fear, the militia is awakened and the politicians become frightened. In my presentation I talk about the “Battle of Blair Mountain.” In 1921, 10-15,000 Miners armed themselves and fought mercenaries and military for the right to organize. (unionize). They lost the battle, but historians believe many of the labor laws passed in the 30’s and current today was the result of this Militia activity. In the 1960’s another group used their right expressed in the second amendment. The Black Panthers rose up against the police abuse in their communities. I believe much of the civil rights movement came about as the politicians became fearful of the people.

    So now we can argue if the threat is real, to rise up again? Perhaps we do not need to argue. The fact is military gun sales are thru the roof. We do not need to waist our time in this moot point, the people are rising up. The Militia is alive. It is our hope the militias rising up will network and become well regulated. Fear and independence is fierce in Alaska. This independent spirit leads Alaskans to believe they can be an island caring for themselves during disaster. What I understand, is no man is an island. If we do not network and communicate together during quiet times, we will have anarchy during catastrophe. We must get past our independence and realize, what is best for the community is also best for us individually. Without networking and public exposure, anarchy will prevail.

    The last point is when and what will the militia respond to. Only future history will determine what the militia responded to. Unlike the military which is command/control, the militia is command/communication/information. Part of the current militia’s role is to research and sort out fiction from fact. The people will respond together when the defense is important and the facts are presented. No militia member takes an order from another militia member unless his conscious dictates he does.

    I cannot predict the future, perhaps it will be gun confiscation that pushes the people to far. Remember-“Those who don’t know history are destined to repeat it.” April 19, 1775- the British came to confiscate guns at Lexington Green.

    If we do not train and become disciplined, anarchy will prevail when catastrophe develops.

    Ray Southwell

  46. Mike Coons

    Ray, well said.

    I’ve been thinking, my wife says I get dangerous doing that, but Norm, the assumption in your last post is that the State of Alaska turns on all Alaskans. The problem I have with that is that then the assumption is that the majority of the legislature violates our State Constitution, our Governor violates our State Constitution and the State Supreme Court throws out the State Constitution. This is unlikely. My Senator, Charlie Huggins, my Rep, Mike Stoltz just to name two would fight against something like you suggest could happen. The one nice thing about Alaska is even our Democrats are gun owners and more conservative than many Republicans in the Lower 48!

    Ray, what you said is something I have also been thinking about. Let’s say it all goes to hell in a hand basket and say Alaska stands alone. If, and it’s a big if, the Lower 48 is blocked from transportation of food and supplies to Alaska, then what do we do? Sure we have a bunch of oil, and we could make do with moose and wildlife, but the other staples could be stopped. So do we network with like States, i.e. Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, much less Canada to get needed supplies to use?

    Again though, look at people like Congressman Wilson, how many more are like him in Congress who would not stand for a takeover by the Feds? What about the Supreme Court, we do have at least a 5-4 majority who stand for the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    So, although I am very concerned about what Obama is doing and the actions and attitude of the media and “leaders” of Congress, i.e. Princess Harry and Princess Poloski, do I fear a full takeover of our nation? No. For like Ray says, they know we are armed and they fear us, more than we fear them. To change that would mean such a large amount of free people to take up arms against free Americans that I just don’t see exists.

    Lastly, Ray brings up the coal miners. In the 30’s they didn’t have instant media, didn’t have the means for rapid transportation like we have now. If something like that were to happen today, I suggest that there would be a lot of armed people coming to their aid and the result would have been different. Same here in Alaska, if AG Holder were to try another Waco here in Alaska, there may be a ring of fed rifles pointed inward, but they would soon find a ring of rifles pointed into them from the outside.

    • Ray Southwell

      Mike,
      Thanks for your comments.

      Alaskans of like mind need to be storing staples for our communities.

      Gardens are an excellent source of food. My wife and I just stored 200lbs of potatoes we grew in our garden.

      Alaska is blessed with wild game and natural resources. Oil is an international currency. If we are united as a people during reconstruction, oil will be the currency, to get the staples we need, when the potatoes run out.

      Alaska’s Unorganized Militia must become visible and “Well Regulated” so we are united at that time of need.

      Ray

  47. Norm Olson

    Mr. Coons,

    Ray speaks to the need for creating command communications in order that we may be connected, passing good intelligence information, and being able to network so that we can assemble rapidly with a singular purpose.
    The need to network is based upon what may happen. Of course we throw around possible scenarios which may seem absurb at the time, but history shows that humans who have not prepared for the impossible are often consumed by it! Down through the ages long lasting nations have built a “peace through militiary superiority” doctrine. Someone once said that if you want peace, you need to prepare for war.
    Have you reviewed Presidential Executive Orders 12919 or 11000? Our own federal government is preparing for disaster–political, social, natural, and economic. It goes without saying that, as winter came on, the ant proved to be far wiser than the grasshopper.
    Have you reviewed the Homeland Security program of establishing a 100 mile Constitution free zone along every international and foreign border of the US? More than half of we Alaskans are in that zone. You say that good men in Juneau would resist a federal attempt to impose federal tyranny on the good people of Alaska. I sure hope you are right, but Patrick Henry would soundly disagree with laying such hopes behind stopping tyranny through the political process alone. Henry said “fine times indeed we would have if only to stop a tyrant we could simply assemble the people. Without your arms it would be impossible!” Patrick Henry was underscoring the need for a powerful citizen soldier army totally unconnected with the federal government.
    It is perhaps unwise to underestimate the machinations of the federal government. So much power has been sapped from the people and is now concentrated and condensed in the central government.
    Governments, like fire, can be a useful servant or a fearful master.
    I would urge the good men in Juneau to endorse the unorganized militia and to give them the recognition they deserve. The citizen soldier is the only defense we have against tyranny on the one hand and anarchy on the other.

    Norm Olson

  48. Ray Southwell

    I recently had a written conversation with an individual who believes the election process is the way to change our Government. Here are his comments and my response below.

    “… As threat to our Constitution and individual rights begin to surface, I have still have faith and confidence in due process, the rule of law, and the wisdom of the official WE ELECTED. When those elected violate our trust (as many have) then we need to replace them with the power of the pen, not the sword. As such, I prefer (and promote) the use of the ballot box so I will not need to open the ammo box.
    Much discussion has been towards the use of a force of arms against federal troops. With that, do you really expect me or any other member of the militia to take up arms against our children? (serving in the Military)

    Mr. …
    You bring up two ways to change Government. There are five ways to change governments.
    1.Soap Box (press)
    If the press documented the destruction of our Constitution and individual liberties, the next possible process to change government would work.
    2. Ballot box
    The general public is unaware of the destruction of the Constitution and individual liberties. If a politician runs on the importance of our Constitution and liberty, they are portrayed as extreme.
    3. Jury Box
    Jury nullification is alive, however, juries are unaware they have the power to nullify unjust laws. The Jury is the poor man’s Supreme Court. Recently, two Public Defender attorneys acknowledged, some police lie and ignore our Bill of Rights. The attorney’s are not allowed to share it with the jury.
    4. Money Box
    According to the Declaration of Independence- “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government…” The ninth and tenth amendments state “The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people”- (9th amendment). The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people”- (10th Amendment). The people have the right to withhold our financial support.
    5. Cartridge Box
    It must only be used in self defense. This was explained in my previous post. Will your family, serving in the military, obey an order to disarm lawful citizens defending their communities in the USA? Mine will not.

    Ray Southwell

  49. Mike Coons

    “Alaska’s Unorganized Militia must become visible and “Well Regulated” so we are united at that time of need.”

    Ray and Norm, first off, go to Facebook and search for me and I’ll accept you there. That way we can converse even more.

    Now, as to Ray and your comment above. Yes the people of this State need to know that they are the unorganzed militia on a day to day basis and that in the event of a major disaster or insurgency that they will be called up by the Governor and that the ASDF will be the unit they are brought into. That said, the ASDF must be known! My opinion Maggie, for too long we have been in the shadows and the past leadership refused to do anything to get us known. The excuses are that we can’t be in competion with the National Guard in recruiting, to that I say that is a load of excuse without basis. For the NG is recruiting the young kid looking for direction, and yes the College Education carrot. However, the ASDF is mainly out for the mature adult, people who have already served but either can’t be with the NG, i.e. retired military, or don’t want to be further tasked for more deployments overseas.

    If we can get the Public Service Announcements (PSA’s) and really do some recruitment drives, then the people will know who we are, then they will have a better understanding how we work and yes, even if they choose not to join as a cadre member, that they may be called up as stated above. All this is education, not just about the 2nd Amendment, the militia but how this all flows as protection of our State and the People of our State.

    Please join me in trying to get the word out.

    Norm, I have not read all that you have put forth. Back at work and this weekend was very busy with home needs. However, I still haven’t heard an answer to my last question to you. The sad thing about the “Michigan Militia” and other “militias” of that era was the “conspiracy theorist” aspect and the protrayal of “nut jobs running around with guns and uniforms” by the media. I do not doubt your senserity for what you do and advocate. However, that era hurt the State Defense Forces nationwide. That is part of the reason our previous commander would not do anything to bring us to the forefront of the people, since the media was having such a field day with the “militias”. That has continued to hurt us. We need to focus on how the organized (ASDF, Naval Militia) and the unorganized (citizen soldier) will and do work for major events. Yes, there is a concern and even fear of government takeover. But there is so much more aspects to this, such as major earthquakes, floods, and yes even insurgent attacks on infrastructure like the railroad and pipeline. That is what gets people motivated more. The added benefit is that if the government were to go crazy then we are already there!

    • Ray Southwell

      Mike and Maggie,

      Ah Yes, the Conspiracy theorist. If you do not agree with the media reports of events, you must be a conspiracy theorist. If you do not believe Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman- You are a conspiracy theorist. If you believe the Federal Reserve Bank is private-You are a conspiracy theorist-wait- it is a private banking system.

      The two of you need to start your own research. Look at what is going on in our Country. Start here.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?_r=1

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot3MH9ypyhI

      Maggie, at the end of the ABC report above, the National Guard youngster talks about shooting Americans if they do not give up their guns. Did he take a different oath than you refer to?

      The fear of Government is great. We stand openly and proudly in uniform. The politicians and people must know we are here and will stand. No hiding, no fear.

      The Black Panthers original purpose was to protect their neighborhoods from police brutality. Of course police brutality of the 60’s is just another conspiracy theory. It was later, they evolved into a Marxist movement.

      Just because you are on a FBI list, it doesn’t mean you have done something wrong. The FBI has a long history of having “lists” of people concerning their “Un-American” activities. Just another Conspiracy theory? Do some research about the FBI-J Edgar Hoover-McCarthyism?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

  50. http://www.MichiganMilitia.com

    Who are we ? Watch for yourself :

    It’s been 15 years and we are still here. We are individual groups working within our local communities. If you know who is in your community, then you can build trust and confidence with them. The different groups keep in contact with each other and even train together, but work within their own community. If anything statewide is needed, we can work together to achieve those needs.

    – SMVM THUMPER

  51. Maggie Balderdash

    I wasn’t going to come back with comment, but must give a parting shot. When I said “the Commander is the only one authorized to speak for the ASDF”, I did not mean to imply that ASDF members no longer had the right of the 1st Amendment, free speech clause. What I meant to say was that the Commander is the only person who is “authorized” to speak “officially” about the ASDF.

    The problems with the two militias you have been discussing is in the leadership of Mr. Olson’s militia. I am not implying that he is a bad person or a bad commander, just that he answers to no one. The ASDF has a complete and well structured(regulated) Chain of Command that starts with the lowest rated PFC all the way up to the Governor of the State of Alaska. We can argue whether it is necessary to have statutes etched in stone to create and to operate the ASDF or not. If Mr. Olson and his fellow militias have the same goals as the ASDF (which are to protect Alaska infrastructure for terrorists, both foreign and domestic) then we have no quarell. Mr. Olson’s militia goes beyond the mandate for the ASDF.

    One more time. The ASDF is not an infantry brigade, trained to “attack” lawful citizens. It is a Law Enforcement Brigade created to assist legitimate Alaska Law Enforcement in preventing further injury to its citizens(as in flood and earthquake), and to “guard and defend” Alaska infrastructure. As I said, neither Mr Coons, nor I speak for the ASDF, but I cannot imagine any of the members participating in any illegal subversion of the Constitution. Every member has raised his/her right hand and sworn, in front of God and other Americans to defend the Constitutions of the United States and Alaska against ALL enemies both foreign and domestic. We also included a oath to obey the authority over us. Mr. Coons rightfully articulated that to do otherwise would be following an illegal order which is prohibited by the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). Is your “unorganized militia” subject to such UCMJ restrictions?

    So, where do we go from here? The ASDF troops are not going to switch to the unorganized militia because the ASDF is needed to train and supervise the unorganized militia that may be activated. The ASDF has police(Peace Officers)powers when activated; the unorganized militia does not. The ASDF is given a legal mission by way of the Governor through his delegate, the Adjutant General(TAG). He then passes the order to the ASDF commander who assigns the troops to the mission. There is constant communications between the “on-site” commander and the Commander. This is what my understanding of “well regulated militia” means.

    I applaud your efforts to protect Alaska and the USA, but history has also showed us that militias, such as the Montana Freemen, and others have gone astray with members who I would classify as “loose cannons”. To use the “B;ack Panthers” as an example of “good” militias is quite a bit over the top. They certainly went beyone collective bargaining and was placed on the FBI’s “watch list”, and as far as I know are still there. This helps make my point about “loose cannons”. Those types of members have given militias a very bad name.

    However, I wish you good fortune in your endeavors to keep a tight control of your members, for the good of Alaska. I also want to thank you for your military service to me and America.

    Maggie

  52. Interesting that this is the second time you have censored my comments. “Your comment is awaiting moderation” is what you have posted, meanwhile “maggie” got posted right away. I guess there is also “NO FREE PRESS” in Alaska either.

  53. bubba

    mr coons i think you are on the wrong side. you dont seem to like your boss. maybe thats why you dont get paid to much

  54. Norm Olson

    Maggie:
    First of all, the citizens militia leaders answer to the members. I was removed as state commander because I failed to abide by my own directives–that of corraborating intel and refusing to listen to my staff. I took the hit and did not fight it.

    Second, I would ask again who voted for the leader of the ASDF? Is he/she responsible to the members or the people at large or is that person responsible only to the governor?

    Third, all concerned citizens should assist in the even of a natural disaster and I suppose there will be an abundance of federal and state aid, but what function will the ASDF provide in it’s “law enforcement” role?

    norm olson

  55. Norm Olson

    Lee:

    Hey old friend. It’s been a long time. Hope is all well there. You’re doing a fine job and I keep up with the SMVM. Love the pictures!!

    Norm Olson

  56. Mike Coons

    Norm, don’t know if Maggie is around or not. Sounds like this isn’t something she wades into much. That said.

    In answer to your question on “who voted for the leader of the ASDF?” We are commissioned Officers by the Governor and the enlisted also report to and appointed under the authority of the Governor. So, no, this is not like the militia of old where Harry Truman was elected Col, or Lincoln elected a Captain (I think that was his rank?)

    As to who we are responsible to, that is easy, the People of the State of Alaska, pure and simple!

    As to the question of our LE role. As an example, when the kids burned down the school at Hooper Bay a few years ago, the Police Chief asked along with the disaster response for more LE officers. We were call up and myself and my Battalion Commander were deployed, along with one Security Forces from the Alaska Air National Guard. For that period of time, we worked along with the Hooper Bay Police in enforcing the law in Hooper Bay. We do not supercede local LE, we add to it as needed. Same time frame, floods in Willow area and Valdez area, we were deployed to those locations and worked with the State Troopers in posting roads that were under water and hazardous area, along with ensuring that the people who belonged there were there, not vandals our thieves. We have done that several times over the years I’ve been with the unit. 2003 when there was evidence of an impending attack on the pipeline and Valdez Terminal, we along with State Troopers, NG, and other Federal agencies increased vigilance over those assets from the Yukon River Bridge, all the way to Valdez, I was at Valdez.

    So you see we are used for LE roles as needed and will continue to do so. In addition we are now training up for being first in with communcations to any disaster state-wide. The equipment is high tech and easily portable anywhere in the state.

    Hope the above answers your questions.

  57. Mike Coons

    Ray, I not even going to go where you want this to do. For I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I sure as hell don’t believe much from the media, local to national!

    As to the NG soldier, he was wrong, pure and simple and if he had used deadly force to confiscate firearms, if he survived he would have been Court Martialed. For as you may or should know that the illegal activity by the NG and LE in New Orleans was found to be just that by the Federal Courts. So, the ruling by the Circuit Court there shows that any order by any Government enitity, be it Mayor, Governor or President to confiscate firearms of the citizens is ILLEGAL!

    “The fear of Government is great. We stand openly and proudly in uniform. The politicians and people must know we are here and will stand. No hiding, no fear.”

    Again Ray, this is where I have a problem, the use of “fear” in so much of your and Norms comments. The Democrats use that to there advantage for the uniformed, i.e. the stopping of Social Security Reform the President Bush had proposed, the Dems put the “fear” into the elderly that they would be kicked out of their homes. Yet that was not nor ever was the case. Fear of a potential can be used effectively. However, what I have been trying to do is to show that there are many stopgap measures to either ensure that those fears cannot be realized or mitigated to the point of the potentials are greatly reduced. I don’t know what more Maggie and I can say or do in this regard.

  58. Norm Olson

    Fear is an interesting dynamic. Some say fear compels our behaviors more than any other emotion. We work because we fear poverty. We take care of ourselves because we fear disease and sickness. We put smoke alarms and extinquishers in our homes because we fear the consequences of fire. etc. etc. etc.
    Mike, your attempt to dispel my fears of a tyrannical government seems to be couched in assuring that someone (e.g. the courts) will stop tyrants. Your cite the Katrina/National Guard episode.
    Normally, I would agree with you. But our recent history, and that of the world show that millions have died becuase they trusted that someone, somewhere, somehow would stop the madness. In Hitler’s case, he simply replaced the courts with his own people, dismissed the legislature, and reformed the government. Soon the dissidents were being arrested. They didn’t really fear greatly, thinking that they would be exonerated by the court. To their horror, and to the grim reality of millions of others, there was no safety in the courts.
    Here in our country there seems to be an unrelenting move toward consolidating power in the central government. The recent Homeland Security laws, along with the 100-mile Constitution free zone, together with the suspension of our 4th Amendment protections, and other evidences of the over-reaching of government becomes just another item on the “long train of abuses.”
    The words of our Founding Fathers are important, and the fears expressed by the anti-federalists seem apropos to the fears being expressed today.
    The very purpose of government is to govern. The very nature of fallen man is to gain power. When these two are joined together, others will suffer. History is a very clear teacher, telling us to stay viligant, guarding very carefully all those who would approach the sacred trust we call liberty.

    Our government is filled with ambitious, wicked, fallen human beings who have repeated used corruption and oppressive means to gain power and to keep power.

    Norm Olson

  59. Norm Olson

    Mike,

    Please read the CATO Institute’s findings at

    http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/The_Law/paramilitarism_in_police2.htm

    It’s quite disturbing. Please comment.

  60. Mike Coons

    “History is a very clear teacher, telling us to stay viligant, guarding very carefully all those who would approach the sacred trust we call liberty.”

    Which we are doing, just in different ways.

  61. Mike Coons

    Will have to do later, have to get ready for work.

  62. Norm Olson

    Mike and others:

    Will you be available to meet with myself, Ray Southwell, and Bob Bird about a week from now?

    We’d like to sit down with members of the ASDF, including John Janik and possibily others to discuss this subject.

    Email me, normandmary@alaska.net AND bob.bird@hotmail.com and Ray Southwell at raith51@yahoo.com I have other individuals
    who are interested in this timely discussion.

    Please let me or Bob Bird know if you are available a week from Friday (or a day before or after)…

    Norm Olson

  63. Dave Fisherman.

    I love the state of AlasKa.I’d love to visit again.
    But the Neo-Militia,move ment is a Kool Idea
    for self-defense only,help law-enforcement and the MIlitary.In my opion Alaska,or any state,for that matter needs not a militia but A CIA backed-
    Foreign legion thats the answer not a Criminal ,raciest militia.Mercenarmies like Black-water.Are the Answer.Like in the 60’s when the CIA-backed Mercenaries in South-Americia.
    Thats what Obma should still, suport private Mercenaries to procted the pipe-line and train Law-encorcement Officers.

  64. Ross Wolf

    Who Would You Trust More To Protect Your Community, “Obama’s Civilian National Security Force” Or Your Own Community Militia?

    While private militias have critics, how could Americans control Obama’s Civilian National Security Force?” Obama never clarified what he meant when he stated in July 2008: “We cannot continue to rely on our military to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded.”

    A Historical note: Germany under Hitler during hard economic times established volunteer “Civilian National Security Patrols” to help Citizens and to protect the Homeland. But soon after the patrols were established, the volunteers transformed into a neighborhood Political Enforcement and Informant Arm” of the Nazi Government. How would our local police interface with Obama’s “civilian national security force?” Would Obama’s volunteers have access to U.S. Citizens’ private records? Would Constitutional rights including the Fourth Amendment be discarded to allow Obama“ volunteers” illegal search and seizure of Americans and their homes? Would Obama’s “Volunteer Civilian National Security Force” be allowed to handle neighborhood informants and share in forfeited assets confiscated from Americans like regular police? The Nazis used Civilian Forces, e.g., with the Gestapo to arrest Germans and to confiscate their property, later moving into their homes. Could U.S. private mercenaries, also civilians now contracted by U.S. Government overseas, work with Obama’s “Civilian National Security Force” in U.S. Cities? Who would you trust more to protect your community, “Obama’s Civilian National Security Force” Or Your Own Community Militia? Because many Americas may prefer the latter, it is foreseeable Obama might want all militia organizations removed from the American landscape.

    Ross Wolf

    • Lysander Spooner

      This is paranoid tea-bagger garbage. And it is completely dishonest, to boot. You build a case that effectively puts the U.S. government on par with Nazi Germany based on nothing reasonably substantial. Laying out a “what if” scenario, you then pose fear-based questions designed to point to what you consider the only answer.

      You need to lighten up and remember that this country has weathered all manner of down times and marginal leadership. The presidency is not monolithic. Even if Obama wanted to lead in the direction you obviously believe he is headed, it is not that easy in our system of checks and balances.

      Last time I checked, the democratic process was intact. If you don’t like the government you have, feel free to vote against it next time around. In the meantime, remember that a majority of your countrymen disagree with you.

  65. Norm Olson

    Ross Wolf seems adequately informed and can see the danger of federal mercenaries. The force called Blackwater is now called Xe. They have mated with homeland security’s Fusion Center effort to amalgamate Obama’s National Security Force with the federal government’s money and resources. Doubters need only go to the Homeland Security Website and read the overview of what the Fusion Center does and what resources are offered to police forces all over the country.

    Lysander Spooner doubts the power or the intent of the Federal Government to impose it’s tyrannical control over the population in the on-coming collapse of the economy that will cascade into civil, religious, racial, and political unrest nation-wide.

    When the financial collapse comes, the cities will be burning and it’s likely that the federals will allow foreign forces to come in to lock down the urban centers. According to the President’s Executive Order 12919, the protection of America’s infrastruction is a top priority when meltdown comes. Since we are in debt to the Chinese and will declare bankruptcy in February-March when the entire GNP exceeds it’s debt and interest, it is likely that the Chinese may be able to spare a million troops to stablize the urban centers of America. Those in the hinter land need not worry, except for those who are in outlying cities close to large urban centers. Millions of Americans are without protection in maintaining their rights and liberty. Some folks, like Spooner really believe that the Central Federal Government is benevolent and caring. But as Ross Wolf mentioned, the same was thought by the Germans in 1936-38. The Nazis were helping people and imposing “security” for the general public. That was until Hitler decided to take complete control.

    I would certainly urge all to be watchful and consider carefully what is happening in America. The question was well asked, “do you want to trust your liberty and security to the Federal mercenaries or your local well-disciplined and patriotic militia that remains true to the Constitution and Rule Of Law???

    • Lysander Spooner

      I appreciate the thoughtful, unemotional response, even if it is a bit over the top, in my opinion.

      According to your view of things, we have about three months before all hell starts breaking loose. If this bankruptcy declaration and financial collapse you speak of does not come to pass, will you reassess your position, or just move the goalposts by changing the time frame?

  66. Ray Southwell

    Lysander Spooner
    Please review the ACLU evaluation concerning the ongoing development of the Fusion centers.

    http://www.aclu.org/pdfs/privacy/fusioncenter_20071212.pdf

    Fusion centers were established under the Bush administration. This ACLU evaluation was December 2007. The growth and increase in their budget continues under Obama administration. This is not a political issue as you suggest. This is about the Federal Government taking complete control. The only question is when it will happen. Will you help defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic?

    Also read this New York Times article from May of this year. “Scouts Train to Fight Terrorists, and More”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html?_r=2

  67. Norm Olson

    L.S.
    I cannot be absolutely sure about the time-line of events. The federal reserve watchdogs have said that the collapse is only months away. I confess that I do parrot them, however, one must work with what one has and I’m concerned now about preparation in the event that it does happen.
    Logic says there are 4 possible scenarios:
    1. Nothing will happen although I prepare.
    2. Nothing will happen so I don’t prepare.
    3. Something will happen but I don’t prepare.
    4. Something will happen and I will prepare.

    Looking at the money supply, the enormous debt, the unpayable interest, the money bubble, the “level-line” DJIA in spite of gold’s rapid rise, I must conclude that something is going to happen. Where it is soon (+- 3 months) isn’t that important really. If it doesn’t happen early in 2010, I will simply have more time to prepare.

    Not being prepared is the most foolish choice.

  68. Mike Little

    Where do I sign up?

    • Norm Olson

      The Alaska Citizens Militia will hold an informational meeting

      on Saturday, January 9, at 1:00 PM, at the Nikiski Recreation

      Center (the old elementary school). The recreation center

      is the long building along the Spurr Highway just north of the

      refinery on the inlet side. We will meet in the large banquet/

      library room.

      This is an important meeting because we plan to inaugurate

      the formation of the “Kenai Peninsula Division.” We want

      representatives from Seward, Sterling, Homer, Soldotna/Kenai

      who will be willing to form brigades in their areas.

      A powerpoint presentation will cover the history, the lawful

      legitimacy, and the need for the citizens militia. Other important

      subject matter will be discussed.

      Hope to see you there.

      If you cannot attend but would like more information about the Alaska Citizens Militia, please email me at normandmary@alaska.net
      requesting a copy of the manual.

      Kind Regards,

      Norm Olson

  69. emma

    Hutaree raid – Norm Olson, Schaefer Cox, Ray Southwell….. Are you next? Let your paranoia run wild.

  70. rainsunoil

    Add my opinion.Domestic terrorist-thats what I think they are. Paranoid wingnuts. I’m met these nuts. They are scamming the weak minded. All this paranioa must sell more guns and ammo. Thats good for your business Huh fellas?

  71. Graehame Thorne

    On 30 Sep 2009 Norm Olson wrote, “I was removed as state commander because I failed to abide by my own directives– that of corraborating intel and refusing to listen to my staff. I took the hit and did not fight it.”
    I was a local commander & regional staff officer in the Michigan Militia, with 12 years’ previous experience as a U.S. Army troop commander & staff officer. When in Sep 1994 I prepared detailed proposals for establishing a common grid coordinate system for the State, classifying & controlling documents, recommendations for coded communications, coded threat and alert levels, and contingency plans, Norm rejected all of them– mostly without reading them. 2 months later, when an informer within the Michigan National Guard provided Norm Olson with current intel, Norm used this information in public statements in which he identified his informer! Not only did the informer now find himself in deep trouble– every National Guard & police sympathizer abandoned the Michigan Militia like rats leaving a sinking ship, taking with them around 90% of our recent military experience. Up until this moment we’d enjoyed excellent relations with a lot of people in many of these agencies– but no more.
    At the Jan 1995 meeting of the 4th Region someone brought a cell phone, the region commander made the call, & held the phone close to the microphone of the PA system. The entire room heard Norm agree to attend a meeting in two weeks for the purpose of standing a vote of confidence. Norm even agreed to use the State command apparatus to advertise the meeting & get county commanders from the other regions to attend. He did not, however, do this. Instead he said the problems were internal to Region 4, & he tried to close ranks with the rest of the State against our attempt to disrupt their organization. Since this fax went to commanders who’d attended the January meeting & had heard Norm’s voice on the phone, it achieved only mixed results.
    Afterward I was asked to draw up the indictment against Norm, & in Feb I was asked to deliver the indictment in front of a room full of local commanders. He stood accused of packing with his supporters the meeting at which he’d been elected, in effect rigging his election; wearing unauthorized decorations; failing to plan & blocking the efforts of subordinate headquarters to plan; making unstaffed public announcements on behalf of the Militia; appointing unqualified staff officers; making no effort to control rumors, accusations, & counter-accusations that were disrupting the Corps; the irregular relief of a county commander who’d been elected by his members; distributing improperly evaluated intelligence data; and most seriously, revealing the identity of a covert informant. I cited for the audience what had happened since then to our ranks, our credibility, & our sources of information and I pointed out that this one act alone would justify the immediate summary relief of any professional military commander.
    Norm won the vote by 2 votes out of about 40. Half of the room, including the region commander, then removed their Michigan Militia insignia & walked thru the door. The disaffection spread rapidly as Norm made further absurd announcements, such as his claim in the summer of 1995 that the Japanese had blown up the federal building in Oklahoma City.
    Needless to say, Norm Olson is completely unqualified by temperament, training, or experience to serve as a staff officer or commander of any Militia group– anywhere.

  72. Norm Olson

    G.T.,

    You’ve left out much of the story. What was the National Guardman’s intel? Was it valid? If not, why would the Guardman worry about a backlash against himself? If it was valid, who did it affect and what would be the consequences of not acting on it?
    I’m sorry if you hold a grudge against me for not approving your plans. Our staff did review your proposals. A new grid system seemed unnecessary since we already had quadrant grid maps in our own Operational areas and a statewide grid seemed an unnecessary duplication of effort. Securing and classification of documents was an impossibility since no communication system could be totally secure, reliable, or surviveable with the number of moles, infiltrators, dissipators, and agent provocatures within the Michigan Militia. There simply was no internal organization strong enough to insure security of documents.
    To this day, no citizens militia organization that I know of has implemented your recommendations. They are good ideas, granted, but codes and secrets that involve tactical ops not only invite espionage, but also alert the enemy. During my tenure as commander, I had no secrets and kept no secrets. My staff and the militia-at-large had access to all of our plans. I published ALMILACT (All Militia Activities) messages regularly, sending them to all divisional commanders. The fact that much information did not get down to the unit level only shows the lack of organizational structure and unity of command.
    COMSEC (Communication Security) has and always will be a critical “weak-link” since plans must be communicated down to the brigade/company level. Getting secure communication up and down the chain would require that a very few select people would know the plans. Keeping those plans from the militia-at-large would mean that our troops would not have the opportunity to decide “for conscience sake” whether to act or to refrain.
    Your ideas and plans are notable and of great worth IF the structure of the entire organization is able to facilitate the plans. Coded comm and classification of documents requires far more intensive organizational structure than exists anywhere in any citizens militia. Those who think they can keep secrets while undertaking or engaging in tactical operations will find themselves the victims of others who are trained to discover those secrets. Remember the Hutaree.

    It seems ironic that the episode you relate concerning the National Guardsman actually involved a secretative operation that threatened to bring the work of the Michigan Militia into question in a most unfavorable light. Essentially, ops were discussed and kept secret from me, the Commander. What would you do if you discovered that an unauthorized op was being discussed apart from any knowledge of the commander or his staff?

    • Graehame Thorne

      Norm–
      First of all, I give you credit for forming the Michigan Militia. But having done that, your performance as its commander was abyssmal.

      Quoting from your post–
      “You’ve left out much of the story.”
      Space limitations leave us no choice but to abbreviate.

      “What was the National Guardman’s intel? Was it valid?”
      Valid enough for you to broadcast it to the world, including the name of your informant.

      “If not, why would the Guardman worry about a backlash against himself?”
      There is no “not”. He was informing you of the story behind the alleged tanks being shipped to Grayling and the black helicopters. And I don’t know that he was worried about a backlash, but he should have been– because you certainly caused one.

      “…and what would be the consequences of not acting on it?”
      You didn’t “act on it”– you told the world what he told you & who told you.

      “I’m sorry if you hold a grudge against me for not approving your plans.”
      No grudge– just facts.

      “Our staff did review your proposals.”
      Horseshit. You penciled in the words “Not Operational– concept info only” while we were sitting in the freaking truck stop. Ray Southwell was present, but he was talking to Art Smith. He didn’t even glance at the plans, nor did you take a copy with you. Once again– no grudge, just facts.

      “Securing and classification of documents was an impossibility…”
      No, it wasn’t. In fact it would have saved you the consequences of having revealed the name of a covert informant.

      “To this day, no citizens militia organization that I know of has implemented your recommendations.”
      Incorrect. After your dismissal, my proposals were adopted in Regions 3 & 4 of the Michigan Militia, representing over 80% of the membership of your own organization. The fact that you don’t know this is adequate testimony to your control over your own outfit. They were also adopted by the Ohio Unorganized Militia & the Great Lakes Regional Militia. Many other citizen’s militias & Patriot groups have security procedures similar to the ones that I proposed.

      “During my tenure as commander, I had no secrets and kept no secrets.”
      An excellent reason for you to have been removed from command. And how in the world, may I ask, were people in sensitive positions in the National Guard, the State Police, & other government organizations supposed to share confidential information with the Militia, if in fact the Militia “had no secrets and kept no secrets???”

      “…the militia-at-large had access to all of our plans.”
      For those of you who don’t know, “militia-at-large” is codespeak for Mark Koernke’s group, which was unaffiliated with Olson’s group. For Norm to have shared sensitive information with a loose cannon like Koernke, whose ineptitude actually got some of his own people killed, is irresponsible, to say the least.

      “The fact that much information did not get down to the unit level only shows the lack of organizational structure and unity of command.”
      And whose fault was this “lack of organizational structure and unity of command,” O former commander; and what steps did you take to remedy it? And if Alaskans were crazy enough to join your new organization, then what are you doing differently now to prevent these problems from again rearing their heads?

      “Your ideas and plans are notable and of great worth IF the structure of the entire organization is able to facilitate the plans.”
      So much for, “Our staff did review your proposals.” If that had been the case then presumably you’d know that part of the proposal was to organize the Militia with a cellular structure, to rank members according to their tenure & reliability, and to implement a clearance program for sensitive information. So the entire organization wouldn’t need to be able to implement or even necessarily be aware of all the plans– just the people with need-to-know.

      “Coded comm and classification of documents requires far more intensive organizational structure than exists anywhere in any citizens militia.”
      Again not true, but it would be a violation of operational security for me to provide details.

      “Remember the Hutaree.”
      The Hutaree were idiots– long on enthusiasm but short on common sense. And with no OpSec at all.

      “…ops were discussed and kept secret from me, the Commander. What would you do if you discovered that an unauthorized op was being discussed apart from any knowledge of the commander or his staff?”
      First of all, I was a commander. In your organization. And a senior staff officer. And you & I both know that kind of thing happened all the damned time. It was a pain in the butt, but as a commander it was my responsibility to rein in the enthusiasts, to calm down those who were deficient in common sense, & not to go running to the newspapers or the cops with everything that came up.
      And so, my fellow Alaskans, we have here a guy who wants to be your commander, but he freely admits to having exposed the name of a covert informant, to having summarily rejected professional staff proposals, & to having no secrets & no security within his previous organization, which he characterizes in his own words as exhibiting “a lack of organizational structure and unity of command.” Just the guy I’d want as my commander.

  73. oogity boogity

    Here’s an interesting web site that tracks wacko’s and nutjobs; http://www.adl.org/mwd/follies.asp

  74. thompst

    Terror stalks the Kenai.

    Fear-mongering is what the militia’s run on. So, now that y2k didn’t pan out the way he’d hoped, Norm Olson is hoping for another catastrophe.

    Let’s step back a little and remember that this Norm Olson is the former teacher of Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City Bomber, who killed 168 US citizens.

    What’s next, Norm? The Kenai Peninsula Borough Building? The Nikiski Post Office? KPC? Who else will be inspired to kill US citizens under your leadership?

    Yes, there is much to be afraid of, including terrorists who have declared war on America– but you don’t have to look very far to find them. They have moved in, wrapped in an American flag and a bible, right next door to all of us.

    Don’t believe me? Check out their “Declaration of War” on their website, or try googling “Norm Olson” for a trip down memory lane….

  75. thompster,

    check out http://www.deadly-secrets.com

    If you really want to know the truth about Okla City. Watch the video. Better yet, read the book!
    I dare you.

    • thompst

      Norm, are you still going on record saying that it was the Japanese? Still discounting McVeigh’s (or “Dear Tim”, as you called him) responsibility for the 168 American civilians killed, and the 680 wounded?

      And how do you think the families of those killed, and the 680 people who everyday struggle with their injuries, might feel about that?

  76. graehame

    thompst…
    “Fear-mongering is what the militia’s run on.”
    There’s an element of truth to this, in that Olson & his cronies constantly over-state their case.
    “Let’s step back a little and remember that this Norm Olson is the former teacher of Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City Bomber…”
    Not true. The FBI itself determined that McVeigh had no relationship with the Michigan Militia. It’s a bit ironic to accuse Olson of this, since he doesn’t even believe that McVeigh was guilty.
    “What’s next, Norm? Who else will be inspired to kill US citizens under your leadership?”
    Equally unfair. I’m on record as being the farthest thing from an Olson admirer, but in my experience Olson has always been pulling back on the reins of violence. He’s a talker, not a doer.
    “Don’t believe me? Check out their ‘Declaration of War’ on their website…”
    There is no ‘Declaration of War’ on their website. There’s a list of gov’t actions that their militia says it will consider to be ‘Acts of War’– & once again, that list is evidence that they’re big talkers, not doers. Many of the things on that list happen every freaking day, as follows :
    Firearms restrictions are a fact in many states (especially New York & California), as is involuntary involvement in anything.
    Circumvention of juries is routine across the country (in that judges find contempt of court in anyone informing a jury member of his right to rule against the law), confiscation of property happens every day (in the enforcement of RICO statutes), checkpoints, routine search & seizure, & taking children under duress or threat happen every day, law enforcement has already been largely federalized, freedom of speech is routinely restricted (as when the Clinton-era Dept. of Housing & Urban Development unilaterally ruled that people forming grassroots organizations to resist the establishment of homeless shelters in their neighborhoods would pay $50,000 fines), and Congress has already surrendered some of its powers to a corporation (under the Federal Reserve Act, which delegates Congress’ authority to coin money).
    By my count that’s 7 full & 2 partial violations of the militia’s 17 ‘Acts of War’. Like I said, talkers– not doers.
    I’m not advocating that Olson declare war over this, but the publication of such a list followed by a failure to act on it betrays the inability of the militia to take effective action.

    • thompst

      Nope, records clearly show that McVeigh and Nichols both trained with Michigan Militia.

      I don’t accuse Norm of wanting to attack civilians, but I do accuse him of spreading violent rhetoric, and training, that encourages some people (McVeigh, Nichols) to blow people up.

    • thompst

      You’re right on one thing: it’s not a “Declaration of War” it’s called an “Acts of War” on the website. I stand corrected on this point.

  77. graehame,

    I thank you for the refreshing breeze of objective observations.

    One that you pointed out was the accusation that the militia is guilty of fear mongering. In reality, people come to the militia because they are already frightened by the central government. In fact, we spend much of our time talking people back from the edge–trying to look at the objects of their fears with objectivity. We are not the perveyors of fear, but rather find that fear is the fuel of the militia. If ordinary people were no longer frightened of a tyrannical and oppressive government, there would be no need for the militia. The militia is a natural response to fear inside a society, be it a clan, tribe, village, town, etc. etc. People come together NATURALLY because they are frightened. We don’t cause the fear, we merely gather together those who are fearful and work with them. We teach patience, preparedness, group accountability, all the while trying to get the fearful person to face his/her fears correctly.

    On the other issue, that of “acts of war,” one need only read the Declaration of Independence to see that there is a “train of abuses” which add up when the central government overreaches. The Founders declared that the Crown had created a “long train of abuses.”

    We the people are making a list. There is no declaration of war yet because we are resiliant and patient and are more willing “to suffer.”

    To all those who don’t understand these simple truths: Read the Declaration of Independence

    • graehame

      Norm–
      “One that you pointed out was the accusation that the militia is guilty of fear mongering. In reality, people come to the militia because they are already frightened by the central government. In fact, we spend much of our time talking people back from the edge…”
      When you were in command of the Michigan Militia you were constantly whipping up fear of black helicopters, fear of Russian tanks at Camp Grayling, & fear of MJTF block-sweeps on the outskirts of Detroit, among other things. Without your endorsement of those issues people wouldn’t have been on the edge in the first place.
      “On the other issue, that of acts of war, one need only read the Declaration of Independence to see that there is a train of abuses which add up when the central government overreaches.”
      Granted. The differences being that in 1776 the Founders had the support of the people, which you don’t; & they were therefore willing & ready to go to war over these abuses, which you aren’t. For you to model your rhetoric on theirs is therefore inappropriate, irresponsible, & likely to get someone hurt. The whole idea of a publicly organized citizens’ militia, in fact, is unsuited to 21st Century realities. The idea that a bunch of citizens with hunting rifles could possibly stand up to the federal gov’t is frankly crazy.
      “There is no declaration of war yet because we are resiliant and patient and are more willing to suffer.”
      Yet. So you’re actually intending a war. Hunting rifles vs tanks, helicopter gunships, riot gas, and worst of all, gov’t lies & media ‘spin’. Waco showed us how that turns out, with 90% of what we were shown on TV being outright lies which– by the time they were exposed for what they were– the American people no longer cared about. So if & when your war happens you’ll lose, because you refuse to plan for it; & when you lose your reputation with the very people whose support you need will be in the toilet because you’ve developed no effective means of getting out your side of the story. All because you’re organized as a militia, the meaning & intent of which has already been twisted by the gov’t & their lapdog media out of all relation to what you originally intended.
      — graehame.

  78. Dave Fisherman

    In my opion: I think America, needs and always needed
    and still, needs for 2010/2011 ect.
    A foregion legion, Mercenary army,I agree a 100%
    with magazine Qutoe from Sof magazine from a few years ago. These American private Military compaines like The former/Ex. Black water-are the answer to help the Regular-US military,and US
    Law-enforcement.
    Even the FBI invested some them. No Army is perferct, unfoutently cime happends in Militarys all over the World.
    As for American civil-Neo Militia’s I think, any State in the USA should fear Neo-militia’s, if their
    Racist.Not to contractdict my self.
    But Is a cool idea to prtoctect America and the US/Candian and US/Mexican borbers and help law/enforcement. I guess this debate in the US between Gun/owners and civilans won’t end for a while. -Dave Fisherman.

  79. graehame,

    You are so wrong! I worked to debunk the black helicopters, cryptic stickers on road signs, foreign equipment at Camp Grayling, and many of the other boogymen that had people stirred up.

    If you’d like, I’ll post press releases that explain the foreign vehicles at Camp Grayling.

    Others created the fiction and drew people to it. I spend much time discrediting the imaginations of others.

    I wish you’d do some real study and investigation.
    I know you won’t believe what you read because you’ve already made up your mind, but I will help you find the truth if you ever want to know it.

    • graehame

      Norm–
      “I worked to debunk the black helicopters, cryptic stickers on road signs, foreign equipment at Camp Grayling, and many of the other boogymen that had people stirred up.”
      I have one of your faxes from 15 years ago describing MJTF block sweeps on the outskirts of Detroit. As for the foreign equipment at Camp Grayling, the National Guard informant referred to earlier was trying to debunk their significance to you. You exposed his identity to the world, thereby destroying his effectiveness. I do seem to recall that you tried to debunk the cryptic stickers on road signs, & I don’t have a specific reference for the black helicopters; but I was there, Norm. I gave you credit in an earlier post for pulling back on the reins of violence, but your level of paranoia had a lot of people stirred up. Had that level of paranoia not been present, then there’d have been no need to preach against violence.
      “I spend much time discrediting the imaginations of others.”
      Like the idea that the Japs blew up the Murrah Building in OK City? Like the idea that a death row inmate is a reasonable source of information about alleged deathhouse conversations with Tim McVeigh? Both of those ideas arose out of YOUR imagination, Norm.
      “I wish you’d do some real study and investigation.”
      Like I said, Norm– I was there. In January & February of 1995 I’m the guy who drew up & then delivered, in front of you & a roomful of local commanders, the indictment that led indirectly a couple of months later to your removal as commander of the Michigan Militia. So I think it’s fair to say that I’ve done my homework. Maybe it’s time that you should do yours.

  80. I still don’t think you have the whole story. You have a limited vantage point from a tiny perspective of what was going on overall.
    It is not surprising that your opinion is jaded and bias based on what you saw and understood what was happening, but you did not see things from where I was standing.
    It is unfortunate, but that is always the case when leaders are criticized by those who have only a few pieces of the puzzle.
    I forgive you for whatever action you took against me. I wish you had known all the various factors that impacted my decisions.

    One day you’ll find yourself at the top and may the Lord forbid that you have followers that don’t understand or don’t want to understand the complete picture.

    Chao.

    Norm Olson

    • graehame

      Norm–
      “I still don’t think you have the whole story. You have a limited vantage point from a tiny perspective of what was going on overall.”
      Interesting argument. You were given the opportunity to respond– to make sure that I & an entire roomful of commanders & senior staff officers had ‘the whole story’ at a meeting in Jackson, MI in Feb 1995. You allowed Ken Adams to make your case for you. And what did he say? ‘Yes, we’ve made mistakes, but we’re doing the best we can & no one else knows how to do this either.’ But you did have people in your organization with recent military command & staff experience. You had seasoned writers, experienced political activists, successful businessmen… Upwards of 20% of the Michigan Militia consisted of people like this, whose talents– properly harnessed– could have made a huge difference. Instead you chose to marginalize them. And after you blew the cover of a covert informant, & after your statements on how the Japanese blew up the Murrah Building in OK City, you lost them. So if I don’t have ‘the whole story’, or I suffer from a ‘limited vantage point’, then whose fault is that, Norm? It isn’t as if you weren’t given the chance to respond.
      “…you did not see things from where I was standing.”
      Let me be as clear as I possibly can. The Militia had an obligation to keep the names of its informants secret. You violated that obligation. If you think your exposure of the identity of a covert informant was justified, then common sense dictated that you make your justification public. In 16 years you never have. In my view nothing can justify it, but if you think otherwise then please explain it to me. And none of this ‘secret ops were being discussed & kept secret from me’ nonsense. Art Smith & I had that happen in Region 4 on an average of once a month. There were also Koernke’s group & various little unaffiliated cells running around whose activities, had they become public, would have been unjustifiably linked by the press to the Militia. We dealt with the situation thru private conversations & by quietly reining people in– not by exposing them to the press; or as Dave Rydel did, by ratting them out to the cops. Once again, if you think your exposure of the identity of a covert informant was justified, then explain it.
      “I forgive you for whatever action you took against me. I wish you had known all the various factors that impacted my decisions.”
      I don’t require your forgiveness, Norm. I didn’t volunteer to indict you– I was drafted; but I did what was right & what was necessary. And in doing so, as pointed out above, I gave you every opportunity to respond. To explain ‘all the various factors that impacted your decisions’.
      “One day you’ll find yourself at the top and may the Lord forbid that you have followers that don’t understand or don’t want to understand the complete picture.”
      In the 16 years since you & I have parted ways I’ve founded a multi-state organization which, although not organized as a militia, has many of the same goals. So the day has come when I and my directors are at the top– and our organization is full of people who ‘don’t understand the complete picture’. That’s because we operate within a truly covert, cellular structure on a need-to-know basis. What our members possess that those of the Michigan Militia lacked is trust in their leadership– trust that we consciously and deliberately set out to earn. You taught me the critical importance of that, Norm, for which I sincerely thank you.
      — GT.

  81. I honestly don’t know who you refer to as the “informant.” According http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE5DF1238F936A15755C0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=allto
    It was Mahoney that blew the whistle on Koernke’s meeting with MMC people.

    I talked to a national guardsman who confirmed that they were on alert.

    The MMC was in the middle and on the verge of an FBI action for conspiracy.

    What would you do? You are quick to damn me to hell. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

    You speak of an “informant”. I still do not know whether you are talking about Mahoney who went to the FBI voluntarily, or the Guardsman who talked to me and understood what he was getting into.

    Just who did I “out” Just who do you think talked to me? Why do you think it was I who “outed” this mysterious informant and why do you think his/her information was pertinent?

    The feds already had the whole game plan. The feds were looking at the MMC. As the commander I didn’t know what was going on inside this little clandestine operation.

    WHAT THE HELL WOULD YOU DO?

    • graehame

      Norm–
      You are clearly obsessed with the events of Feb 1995, when Rydel & Mahoney exposed the insane plot to attack Camp Grayling. I was frankly unaware that you had anything to do with that, either before or after.
      But I am referring to the events of Nov 1994, when you were approached by a Nat’l Guardsman who explained the significance of the Russian tanks (& possibly the black helicopters). You then included his name in a press release, causing him all kinds of grief & causing virtually all of the Militia’s Nat’l Guard & Police members, affiliates, & sympathizers to end any relationship with the Militia.
      I keep coming back to this because it’s the very best example of your lack of judgement & OPSEC, which would have justified the summary relief of any professional military commander. You can deny all memory of the event now, 15+ years later; but I accused you of this on the stage in Jackson MI in Feb of 1995, & you & everyone in the audience certainly knew exactly what I was talking about then. In fact, earlier in our present e-mail correspondence you seemed to have had a much better idea what I’ve been talking about than your last response would suggest.
      I’ve searched my files, & I’ve been unable to locate the name of the Nat’l Guardsman.
      (BTW, the meeting you refer to wasn’t primarily of Koernke meeting with MMC people. I’m not sure what your representatives may have told you, but the meeting was an attempt by Dave Rydel to bring together Koernke, the MMC, & some of the lone wolf cells under Rydel’s leadership. He always did have an inflated idea of his abilities.)
      Turning to whatever it was you did following the exposure of the plan to attack Camp Grayling, you justify it because “the MMC was…on the verge of an FBI action for conspiracy. …The feds already had the whole game plan. The feds were looking at the MMC.”
      From your perspective, so what? Aren’t you the guy who told the Washington Post “any movement needs a…rallying point, an Alamo or a ‘Remember the Maine…'”? If the Militia “was on the verge of an FBI action for conspiracy,” then that would simply have created the conditions that you needed for your showdown. Or maybe you weren’t really as eager for a showdown as your rhetoric would suggest. In which case maybe you shouldn’t have said it.
      From my perspective, what the hell would I have done? First, I would have instituted OPSEC, COMSEC, and security clearance procedures based on background investigations, need-to-know, & a cellular organizational structure, like I suggested in my formal proposals to you back in Sep 1994– your acceptance of which would have avoided the whole damned problem. In the years since, practically the entire nationwide militia movement has gone in that direction. But failing that, I would have done precisely as I did when I was questioned by the FBI in connection with the Oklahoma City bombing investigation & later sought by the State Police in connection with the Gleason murder investigation. I would have refused to cooperate in any way or to answer the questions of investigators. Since neither you nor I attended the meeting in question & had nothing to do with any of the crimes for which we were being investigated, the cops had nothing on us, in which case our biggest problems would emerge from our own mouths.
      I hope this answers your questions.
      But for the record, Norm, I’m not “quick to damn you to hell.” You & I have had our differences. As I said on the stage in Jackson MI 15 years ago, I give you credit for forming the Michigan Militia, I’ve never considered you any kind of a government agent, & I think you’re basically a good guy. Just promoted beyond your pay grade.
      — GT.

      • GuyWhoWorks ForALiving

        Let the police and military do whatever they want…spoken like a true defeatist demacrat. Big brother knows best. SECTION 8 apartmets for EVERY neighborhood! THIRD WORLD COUNTRY! THIRD WORLD COUNTRY! C’mon dems…say it with me!

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